why NGC coins do not cross to PCGS (a theory)

This is just a theory, I would be curious to hear of others thoughts on this possibility.

When one sends a slabbed NGC graded coin to PCGS in an attempt to cross the coin over to a PCGS slab, PCGS has a vested interest in NOT crossing the coin. By routinely assigning a "DNC" (did not cross) to NGC graded coin, they increase the "mystique" and "reputation" of PCGS -- that PCGS is "stricter" and PCGS graded coins are "better" and worth more than NGC graded coins. That PCGS is the "premier" third party grading company, second to none. This serves to increase business and profits for PCGS.

Let's just say that PCGS gets a shipment of 500,000 NGC graded coins that actually would and should cross to PCGS. If PCGS crossed them all over, it would start to get out that NGC coins are just as good as PCGS graded coins (That a PCGS MS64 is exactly equivalent to an NGC MS64) and the price "premium" currently assigned to PCGS graded coins would collapse -- causing PCGS's mystic to diminish and PCGS would lose business (and their reputation for being the "best").

I have heard anecdotally that one is better off cracking out a coin from an NGC slab and sending it in raw to PCGS for grading. That by doing that you greatly increase your chances that the coin will get the same grade that NGC assigned -- since PCGS will actually do their job (assign an accurate grade) on raw coins, where they don't have a motive to sandbag (like they do on coins already slabbed by another competing company).

Sending a coin in an NGC slab to PCGS is basically a waste of time as almost all NGC graded coins will come back from PCGS as "DNC" -- they don't even have to look at them. Plus by doing the "DNC" trick, they further maximize their profits as they still get their full grading fee without having to do anything ... no need to go through the cost grading the coin, cracking the slab, creating a new label and placing the coin in a new PCGS slab.

With this DNC trick, all they have to do is open the envelope, toss the NGC graded coin aside, and then pocket the full grading fee -- and after waiting 4 to 6 weeks (purely for show), send back the original NGC slabbed coin to the customer with a DNC designation. (A perfect money making scheme.)

When the customer gets back a bunch their NGC slabs from PCGS with DNC's, PCGS knows they will get the customer thinking: "Wow, NGC coins really are NOT as good as PCGS coins. These coins I bought in NGC slabs are probably all AT'd or really a much lower grade. I should start buying just PCGS graded coins and avoid NGC coins". This furthers the cycle of (artificially) driving the price of PCGS graded coins higher (since more people are trying to buy them while avoiding coins from other grading companies). Sellers then start seeing that PCGS coins are selling more and bringing higher prices, so sellers start sending more coins to PCGS. (More profits for PCGS).

I think it would be a really enlightening experiment to take a PCGS graded MS65 coin, crack it out and put it in a faked NGC slab with a MS64 label, then send to PCGS for an attempt at "crossover grading" at the MS64 level -- then see if it comes back 6 weeks later with a DID NOT CROSS designation at that lower level.

In today's capitalistic society, profits almost always trump ethics. I think that if you give a large corporation an opportunity to be unethical to make more money, most of the time they will.

 

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Great observation WL, I think you may be right!!

 

I don't believe those words.

 

Sending a coin in an NGC slab to PCGS is basically a waste of time as 99.9% of all NGC graded coins will come back from PCGS as "DNC" -- they don't even have to look at them
.

This is grossly exaggerated and I am a PCGS kool aid drinker. Each TPG has there own standards, so things will not cross back and forth. They all have there flaws but you need to understand the floe of work in the grading room before making up things. If you want a PCGS coin sometimes you are just better off buing a PCGS coin. That is what I do in my series because I think PCGS is stricter for what I collect.

 

It could be true, at times, though I have seen NGC coins actually come back graded higher....so, it's not that they 'won't', or 'don't'......they 'can' cross at grade, or even upgrade....sometimes they do, sometimes they don't. But I don't think they have a vested interest. The graders don't know the grade, they only know the holder, so.......it's a crapshoot. Though, cracking out might give you a better chance, it could also be a liability. What if PCGS called it a 'genuine' for some reason?

 

The 99.9% figure is way, way off. About 40% of all NGC coins sent in cross. It is not that different when PCGS coins are sent to NGC for crossover. NGC says that about 50% of PCGS coins sent in cross. A big reason is simpler than any conspiracies, it is that the holders make viewing the coin more difficult. Both companies would like to have the best coins in their holders. Against that, is the possible liability of the grade guarantee, and wanting to appear to be the stricter service.

 

In my observations they both grade pretty similar. It seems each service has some coins they are tougher on. For example I have found NGC to be much harder on standing liberty quarters then pcgs.

I have long thought that PCGS and NGC undergrade coins to gain respect. Going back to the modern and PR70 debate. It is almost like a "cut off" with pcgs to keep the pops low. In my opinion that makes them just as bad as SGS in the fact they try to build value in a product that does not exist. I think most people would tend to disagree with me. But that is just my opinion. If I have gonna fork over 100 bucks for a coin it better be old and rare....not some state quarter in a special holder LOL.

It would be nice to think that in a crossover that the grading services would only judge the coin. I agree with OP that they do this to build value in their product.

Then again I have an NGC MS66 Morgan I just bought sight unseen covered in bagmarks. I bet that would not cross over LOL

 

Good discussion.

The main reason I am on this board is to learn things, so if the theory is off base, it's good to learn.

Curious what you all think about this PCGS grading job ... was PCGS strict with this coin?
I have never seen a coin more obviously AT'd

No idea what the grading company was on the LHS. It wasn't NGC. Also I don't know if the coin
was cracked out and sent in raw for re-grading (on the RHS) ... or if it was sent into PCGS in the LHS slab.

 

I see it the same.

 

By the way, I first heard the theory put forth in the original post from a well-respected and well-known Senior Coin Talk Member and long time Coin Dealer. I don't want to betray any confidences by saying who it was.

This person told me this theory a few months ago (and it SHOCKED me at the time) ... however the more I thought about it, the more sense it made. In any case, I've been mulling it over while observing similarly graded PCGS and NGC coins to see if I can tell a difference.

And from my observations, each coin is different. For similarly graded slabbed coins, sometimes the PCGS coin seems better and sometimes the NGC coin seems better. I am also seeing a pretty wide variation amongst similarly graded coins from the SAME company (which is why you always hear: "Buy the coin, not the slab"). In any case, from what I have observed, I am NOT seeing a consistent relationship where a similarly graded PCGS is ALWAYS much better than an NGC coin ... a grade at least 1 step higher ... a relationship that the online price guides imply.

And just based purely on observation, I think that NGC gets a bit of a bad rap. That I have seen some gorgeous NGC graded coins that appear to be spot on with the assigned grade.

I have also heard from a lot of dealers (and some collectors) that getting NGC coins to cross to PCGS is a very difficult proposition. However I have no direct experience in sending in NGC coins to PCGS for cross grading. So that part of the theory is based purely from what I am hearing from others. Honestly, from what I am hearing, why bother trying to cross anything -- seems like a waste of time and money.

In any case, I just wanted to toss this theory out there to see if others agreed or disagreed with it.

 

The first is an old PCI problem coin slab.

 

Gosh, ya really think so?

WingedLiberty, I think you just reached what some of us at least are accustomed to referring to as "the first plateau."

Good for you! :thumb:

 

Okay, what's the back-story on this? It's enough to make me wonder if somebody's showing off their skill at faking PCGS slabs.

 

I avoid the whole lot of them. It is exclusively OGP for yours truly.

 

Well founded theory IMO.

That is a given. It's sometimes painfully obvious. I think both services pick certain coins on occassion to be made "examples" to show how tough they are.

 

EddieSpin, now you peaked my curiosity. What are the second and third plateaus?
​

 

The Certification Number on the PCGS slabbed ASE is legit ...

http://www.pcgs.com/Cert/71095809.html

 

GDJMSP, if I accept your belief that PCGS and NGC are roughly the same (NGC tougher on some, PCGS tougher on others) ... why is there a premium on PCGS coins? That is, why does the same grade PCGS cost more than a similarly graded NGC coin. With this fact, isn't there an implication that the PCGS coin is better than the NGC coin? Or do you think the higher price is just ((insanity)) on the the part of the PCGS lovers, that ends up bidding the coin up.

Also I wonder how much the PCGS registry set participants drive the prices? PCGS registry only accepts PCGS graded coins, so it seems like that might drive demand for PCGS graded coins. I wonder if that could be causing some of the price discrepancy? (I think that NGC registry accepts both PCGS and NGC graded coins)

Finally, I would love to hear from some dealers on this subject. Do any of you submit to NGC as a first course of action on a raw coin? Or do you always submit to PCGS first. Then if PCGS rejects the coin, only then do you submit to NGC?

Are there people that LOVE NGC and submit coins to NGC as a first course of action?