Two very old gold coins

hello
i ve got 2 coins here ,does anybody know what is the value of these coins ?
thanks

 

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Maybe this will help you get started tracking down details... a quick Google search found the top one listed as a Hungarian King Matthias ducat:

http://jewelry.vicmart.com/i-3203-1458-hungary-kronstadt-gold-ducat-coin-rare-!.html

"Hungarian King Matthias Corvinus / Mathias Corvinus 1458-1490 gold ducat forint / gulden coin minted in the Austria Hungarian town of Kronstadt near Transylvania and Romania during that time. Struck out of 23.65 karat solid gold and with weight about 3.5 grams.Obverse shows St. Ladislaus / Wladislaus and reverse shows the Hungarian Coat of Arms / Crest. King Mathias I was also known for the fact that he defeated Count Dracula and kept him a prisoner for a very long time. Scarce numismatic collector piece and one of the rare Hungarian coins."

BTW, do you know the provenance of these coins?

 

and something similar from coinarchives.com:

Türkei - Westsamoa
UNGARN
Matthias Corvinus-1458-1490
Goldgulden o.J. (1463), Kronstadt (3,54 g): Pohl:K4-2. R s.sch.

http://www.coinarchives.com/w/lotviewer.php?LotID=458377&AucID=341&Lot=1555

 

What year did Hungary start using Arabic Numbers ??? I have some Dinars from 1530's in Arabic. Just curious guys. Nice gold coins. Traci

 

I wondered how long it would take for someone to say this.

Thanks, Doug.

 

Actually, I asked "BTW, do you know the provenance of these coins?" with possible doubt of authenticity implied, but of course, not assumed. =)

 

These two are metal detector finds (not my finds) , i dont know whether are coins genuine or fakes (who would put two gold coins inro the ground,i dont know....) how do i recognize real ones from fake ones?
weight of the 1st one is 3,68g and 2nd is 3,5g

 

(who would put two fake gold coins into the ground,i dont know....)

 

Doug,

Fake or not, why would anyone throw away what appears to be pure Gold or near pure Gold coins??? If they aren't made from pure Gold or close to it, then they were at the least, dipped in it! Gold of 22Kt to 24 Kt purity has a distinct color to it and unless the color of the coins in the pictures is way off, then the Gold is of high purity! Also, the purity of the Gold in the coins would account for the extra weight as by using as near as pure Gold as possible thus substituting the .10% of Copper in most Gold (22Kt) coins for nearly pure Gold, then the computed weight for a coin of the same diameter and thickness comes out to around 3.6575 grams.


Frank

 

Doug,

You are probably 100% on about the authenticity of the coins! However, if the coins were made from nearly pure Gold, then the OP has two Gold Nugget grade...meltable coins with a total weight of 7.18 grams. Not too bad for a Metal Detector find, huh???!!!


Frank

 

Frank,

What would be the motivation of a counterfeiter to counterfeit those coins?

If they are contemporary counterfeits (made contemporaneously to spend and to fool a merchant) the counterfeiter would make his money by shorting the amount of gold in the coins. Oftentimes a counterfeiter would make his contemporary counterfeit out of base metal (lead, copper, German silver, etc.) and either give it a gold plating or gold wash to give it the appearance of a gold coin. The amount of gold used to plate or wash the coin is usually negligible.

If they are modern counterfeits meant to fool the collector the counterfeiter would make his money from the supposed numismatic value of the coins (over and above the cost to produce them). If these are modern counterfeits they would likely have the correct gold content so as to lessen the chance that a collector would reject them.

Do you think these coins are contemporary counterfeits or counterfeits meant to fool a collector?

 

HI guys
i still think that these coins are genuine
there is couple of things i have to say

1, we have found 5 of them (from 3,35 to 3,68g) i went through a lot of auctoins and weight of these coins is around 3,45 - 3,55g,but some of them are 3,30 -3,65g sold for the same amount of money as the '' genuine 3,500000000g ducats''
2, one of them is bended to the right angle ,there are no signs of other metal than gold in that bend at all ,
3, how is it possible ,that we have found 5 of them and none of them is exactly the same as the other one ,who would make 5 different fakes and lost them in the same spot (10 meter wide circle)????
4,these coins taken from the ground were washed just by water ,nothing else.thats why i think these are made from gold and genuine
5,pictures were made in dark- under artificial lighting
i can send new ones if requested

but guys thank you anyway for your opinions,
i know this my 1st post and i know there is no trust so i understand your comments

Jakal

 

Hi jakal, I'd love to see more photos of the other coins you have.
I was curious if you have tested to see if a magnet sticks to any of these 5 coins? Give it a try and let us know if it sticks.

 

Hobo,

I understand your thinking but the answer is very simple! A Counterfeiter will counterfeit a rare Silver or Gold coin using similar or higher purity Gold as they can always find an unwitting buyer for the coin, who will pay much more than the cost to produce it! If the Counterfeiter has only around $100 or less in the Gold in each of the Ducats but sells them for (let's say only) $500 each (which is generally less than half of what a genuine Hungarian Ducat from the same period is worth), then the Counterfeiter has made $400 (not considering the cost for the equipment, labor and supplies to produce the coin). Since these Counterfeiter will usually produce many counterfeits of these and other rare Gold coins in a run, then they can really make a killing! If a Counterfeiter produces 100 of these and makes $400 on each one, then $40,000 say every few weeks will quickly make up for the costs of the equipment, labor and supplies. Imagine, if this Counterfeiter produced the amount of fake coins that many Counterfeiters in Shanghai, China produce on any given day (which is usually a thousand or more) and sold each at a $400 profit! Now, that is quite an incentive to produce them with high grade Gold!

If they are counterfeit coins, then Yes! However, although we have a good indication that they are counterfeits, we don't know 100% for sure.


Frank

 

It seems odd though that a collect would have bought these fakes thinking they are genuine and then lose them like this.

My guess is they are contemporary counterfeits that were discovered to be spurious and discarded OR they are genuine coins that were lost many generations ago. I don't know these coins well enough to say one way or the other. For all I know they could be game tokens.

 

Krispy = they dont stick to the magnet at all

i ll try to get other coins from my friend and make pictures as soon as i can