I've been collecting for a long time, starting in the late 60s when times were simple. I graded using the adjectival grading system. Just like all the other knot-headed youngsters with penny books during the time, LOL... Since my late discovery and use of the Sheldon Coin Grading (70 Point) Scale some years ago (1975 or so) I've always wondered where my coins fit using it. From Poor-1 thru Mint State-70, there was a spcae and condition for each and every one, seemed easy enough. Sheldon had virtually taken the place of Poor, Good, Fine, Very Fine, Extra Fine, Almost Uncirculated, Brilliant Uncirculated, and Proof. A much more precise method of categorizing the condition of ones coins wouldn't you say? My only question is why Very Fine coins have such a wide latitude ranging from VF-20 all the way to VF-35. I mean all the other adjectival grades are only allowed about 10 points on the numeric scale but Very Fine has 20 causing a jumble or bottle-neck pile-up in the grading system. Is there a legitimate documented reason for this wide Very Fine range in coin grading? Take Care Ben P.S. I'd also like to add than when grading coins in he Extra Fine category I like to use EF for coins which look 40ish and XF for those in the 45 range. Just a personal preference.
Ben. I am glad you started this thread I for one have never been a fan of the Sheldon coin grading scale. And your statement on grading vf-20 to vf-35 is right on, the Sheldon scale in my opinion was conceived so rich coin collectors and dealers could get richer. As for the MS grades, there is no difference in my opinion between a coin that is MS-69 and a coin that is MS-70 the MS grades are just an opinion of the person grading the coin. However the coin media and dealers have convinced collectors that there is this big premium between the two grades. It is my opinion there is no such thing as a perfect coin and if someone grading a coin says a coin is perfect because it is a MS-70 and that person wants to through his money away then so be it, I for one do not want that hook in my mouth at least that is the way it seems to me. Bruce.
I assume by documented reason you are asking if there is an explanation written down someplace. If there is I am not aware of it. But the scale that is used from start to finish is merely to numerically describe the varying degrees of condition. I think it works just fine. As to why it was done that way, you'd have to ask Mr. Sheldon.
To me there is no way of putting any grades on a numerical scale. The current grades are merely subjective, but are fairly consistent. The Sheldon scale is pathetic in that it only has AG-3 and G-4...there should be at least ten or twenty grades for heavily worn coins, as there are for slightly worn coins. However this obviously isn't of much use-if you buy an exspensive worn coin you don't really care exactly how worn it is as long as it clear..
Some of the confusion goes away if you consider the original basis of Dr. Sheldon's scale. Starting with P-1 he assigned a numerical grade based on the multiple of the base price which a copper coin in that condition would bring. Especially in the MS category, his original theory has now been shot to heck!
Really ? Then can you please explain to me what difference there is between using a letter/number combination and a multiple letters combination. Like how is F12 & F15 any different from About Fine and Good Fine ? The same can be said of XF40 & XF45 vs About XF and Good XF. Whether you use an adjectival grading term or a numerical grading term really makes little difference now does it ? In the US we use numbers, in Europe they use letters only more of them in some cases. Take the Fine grades for example - the Europeans use About Fine, Fine, Good Fine, Very Good or Choice Fine. They do the same with the VF grades and the XF grades. I really can't see the difference between using numbers or letters. And by the way, the Sheldon system uses PO1, PO2, AG2, AG3, G4, G6, VG8 and VG10 - all before you even get the Fine grades.
Any word system/letter system is chosen on the whim of the grader-I use Near Fine, Fine and Good fine and not choice fine.....and with low coins I use more terms....so it will go Basil state,Almost CD (two or three digits clear) , CD (readable date, but the rest of the coin unclear), Poor, AFair, Fair, GFair, AG, G, GG, AVG, VG , GVG and then combinations for coins with very heavy wear on some parts ie: Obverse centre Poor, rest GG.......I am not saying these grading terms are immensly accurate as they are based more on attractiveness and personal whim than on any real method , but you could almost certainly fit ten grades between PO1 and PO2. This is not a proposed new grading system but a list of random terms which i commonly use
Relax guys... I was only pointing out that the grade Very Fine has so many points associated with it. Maybe another adjectival grade should be considered. Something like Reserve Fine or Fine Plus for the Sheldon Grades of 20-30. Ben
As hotonani stated, the original concept was based upon pricing. It is only because of the current marketing climate that the 750 sub points of grading have occurred. Originally it was VF-20, then XF-40. With all of that empty space the dealers/grading companies had to fill the void somehow. As is obvious, no grading company like a vaccuum. Soon they use all twenty points from VF-20 to XF-40.
Wrong! Originally there was P, G, VG, F, etc. Then came 2, 4, 8, 12, etc. In order for people of the time to relate to the "new" (Sheldon) scale, the letters and number were married. Since the XF was apparently costs twice what VF did, you have VF-20 and XF-40. I was not even in this country when it happened, but I will bet I am correct.
Actually, you are wrong. The original sheldon scale was developed with numbers. Each coin was assigned a price in basel state (PO1) and from there would multiply in value (G-4, 4 times as much, VG-8 8 times, VF-20, 20 times etc...)
Acualy?? I am not saying that you ever saw the scale as numbers only, just that in order for people to accept his numbers, he had to marry it to a recognized identification. I do not know if numbers only was ever released. The point is that they were married to get the numbers accepted.
OK. I'll be the first to ask. Is there a place on the net where you can get precise details for Sheldon 4, Sheldon 12, etc.? I've searched a bit with Google and they always relate it to the "old" system of AG, G, F, VF system. Is there an Independent gude on how to rate? In other words, what is does a Sheldon 14 look like? I'm probably missing something - as usual
To my knowledge there is no web site. What you'd want is the book Sheldon wrote - Penny Whimsy Also, don't believe there was a 14 used.
As far as I'm concerned the entire grading system is stupid. Even way back when there was only things like G, F, Unc, etc. it really made no CENTS. Pun there. If you think about it a coin that used to be G ment Good but when you looked at a G coin it was in reality Poor or Horrible. Good used to mean you can tell it is a coin practically. Slight exageration. I mean even when you had a coin that was Fine, it was in reality just a Nice or Decent appearing coin. I think the old Whitman Red Book started the nonsence of G, F, Unc, etc. stuff. I've got all the old ones from #1 to present and even in the Red Book it appears no one knows what they are talking about. In the Red Book there are numerous places where F, VF, Ef are still used. Page 10 attempts to explain Grades but no comparison with EF and EF-45, -48, -XX, etc. I really like their explanation of AG-3. Should really be Y for YUK. Soon enough someone will start another grading system where coins will be graded in a 100 scale so that you will have NSG-99 or Not So Good but close. How about MS-99.835. AU-87.924+ or - .002? My opinion is to go to all coin web sites and start our own grading system, write books and papers on this and make a fortune and retire and watch all the collectors and dealers trying to unraffle the mess.
here's how i grade coins when i'm looking to buy. really nice - would love to own this coin good looking - would buy it if the price was right not bad - i'd keep it if someone gave it to me can i melt this? when i'm looking to sell, i convert my scale to the classic XF, AU, UNC -steve
