Question regarding missing clad layer

Ok I know..NEED PICS. But I am at work and can not do that right now. I have a 1980 P Quarter that appears to be missing the clad layer. Besides being well circulated, it is entirely a copper color. It does not appear to be plated, but can't really tell. Can anyone tell me what I should be looking for to determine if it is plated/post mint or if it is actually missing the clad layer? Also, is there any premium to a coin if it is indeed missing the clad layer?

Thanks!

 

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The primary tests are weight and thickness. A "complete" clad quarter will weigh 5.67g, and will measure ~1-3/4mm. (Plating typically won't add any measureable amount to either specification.)

Remove one outer layer and both measurements will go down substantially, although I can't give you precise information.

Remove both outer layers and both measurements will go below one-half normal.

I'm not up on current values, but several years ago I sold an uncirculated bicentennial with missing reverse clad to a well known error dealer for $250.

 

weight and thickness checked

OK, I have checked the weight and thickness

Weight= 5.55 grams
Thickness= 1.63 mm

I also checked some newer quarters and they had a weight of 5.66-5.71 g and a thickness of 1.73-1.75 mm.

Is this difference enough to warrant looking further or is it too slight?

 

Definitely. IMHO Mike Byers and Fred Weinberg are the top two error dealers out there, so I would send a picture and the actual specifications to either or both of them to see what they have to say.

 

It's probably just discolored. The nearly normal weight is inconsistent with a missing clad error.

 

It is my understanding that most authentic missing clad layer coins only have the reverse missing.There may be rare exceptions.It was explained to me that it had something to do with the hub.The weight doesn't sound right on that either.But Fred Wienberg is your best bet on that one.That's were I found out about mine.Unfortunately one was acid cleaned.But the other turned out authentic.So one made up for the loss on the other.Actually the authentic one sold for 850.00.But that is because I had it attributed.And it graded a ms66.The other I keep just to remind myself how stupid I was to buy it without checking into it further.Lucky for me I bought them at a fleamarket for 15.00.Good luck

 

Welcome to CoinTalk, Coino.

The hub has nothing to do with a missing clad layer. The hub is what is used to make a die. A master hub is used to make a master die which is in turn used to make working hubs. A working hub is used to make working dies. The working dies are then used to strike coins.

In an entirely different process coin strip is made into blanks. The blanks are run through an upset mill which raises a rim on the blanks which are then known as planchets. The planchets are fed into the coin press and are struck by the dies to make coins. So the hubs have nothing to do with whether a planchet is missing a clad layer.

Also, the planchets are fed into the coining press oriented randomly. The missing clad layer has an equal chance of being on the obverse as it does on the reverse.

 

Thanks Floyd.I'm sure a hub had nothing to do with it.I mean after all a hub is only created to create the die that may have had something to do with the clad layer being removed from the strike.Mere speculation.But to here from a true expert is so refreshing.I've seen many more authentic reverse clad layer missing errors then obverse myself.But I'm no expert it that field as you seem to be.That's why I referred them to Fred.But your input is always welcome to make a point.Oh sorry hobo.I called you Floyd.My mistake again.Seems I just can't get anything right.LOL
encil:

 

Floyd? I've been called worse! :mouth:

Let me try to clarify how missing clad layer coins occur. Coin strip is made with a copper core sandwiched in between two layers of copper-nickel. The blanks are punched out of the coin strip. Sometimes one or both copper-nickel layers is missing near the end of the coin strip and blanks that are punched out there will be missing a clad layer. These blanks with a missing clad layer go through the upset mill the same as the other blanks to become planchets. These missing-clad-layer planchets are then stuck into coins like all the other planchets but they become coins with a missing clad layer.

The important thing I am trying to get across to you is the clad layer was missing all along. The die did not strip off the clad layer when the coin was struck.

Does that make sense, Harvey?

 

So how come we never see a partial missing clad, where the planchet is punched from the transition area?

 

Good question. I can't say that I have seen any but I'm sure they exist.

 

Most missing clad errors occur when a clad layer falls off after blanking but before the strike. A few occur when a clad layer falls off after the strike. Rarest of all are those where one clad strip ends prematurely, allowing the remaining two strips (clad and core) to be rolled to full thickness. Only one example of a quarter struck on a copper core is known. Only one example of a dime struck on a copper core is known.

 

There ya go - straight from the expert.

 

Only one known huh?Buy who coneca or the whole entire world?Wow I love this kind of question and answer forum.So out of all known.How many are on reverse and how many are on obverse.Or is there a statistic to support that finding?As far as a partial missing clad layer goes.Would that just mean one side missing?One small or large piece of one side missing or would it mean that it probably is done after striking if just partial is missing..the reason I ask is. I have a very strange penny I pulled from the 2009 LP2 P roll.I've seen several examples of poor clad layering.Meaning a lot of bubbling going on there.One piece I found has what appears to be a small piece of clad layer missing.At first I thought it was just a big grease spot.But on further examination.It is clear that the spot won't come off and the edges around the spot look like it may have been one of those bubbles that simply shattered of during striking.I posted the best pictures of it I could get in another forum.But I don't think I have ever seen bubbling like the formative years at such a large quantity.Die break is ruled out because they are to smooth of a bubble and in many different locations.

 

I'm wondering if this bubbling could have been from annealing.Because these layers are so thin now.It amazes me how they stay on at all.

 

I like to think that there is always just a straight forward answer to every error.Because it is nice to see when there is.That way there is less question as to what it is and how it got there.I guess that is why I love errors.There usually is a straight forward answer after you investigate it enough.

 

No, a "Partial Missing Clad Layer" Error is just that! The coin is missing a portion of the Clad layer from one side. Also, a "Missing Clad Layer" Error means that the coin is missing the entire Clad layer from one side, while a coin that is missing the Clad layer from both sides would just be designated as an "Missing Clad Layers" Error.

Your' Lincoln Cent is most likely missing a small portion of the Copper Plating! That may be due to a poor adhesion of the Copper Plating to the Zinc core which allowed the piece to separate during the force of the Minting process or as in scenario that you stated, a bubble formed between the Zinc core and the Copper plating that burst for some reason and the piece of the Copper plating separated from the coin in a similar manner that a De-Lamination Error (Lamination peel or separation) occurs.


Frank

 

I'm new here.Is there a way to just up load my pictures to the message without having a URL to have to create.Not that I'm lazy.I just don't like putting all my images out there for anyone to have.Isn't there a way to just simply upload straight from my photo images on my computer.Or do I have to create a URL for every image I upload in here.

 

Thanks frank.You confirmed what I was thinking.

 

Welcome to CoinTalk.

You will have much better luck getting a response to your question if you start a new thread rather than adding to an existing - and unrelated - thread.

Please post a photo of your coin. We cannot tell you much about your find from only a vague description.

It is highly doubtful it is a genuine US coin for several reasons:

1) You say your coin is dated 1776. The US did not start minting coins until 1792.

2) You say your coin has a denomination of "20D". The highest denomination silver US coin is $1.

3) The US did not start minting a $20 coin until 1849. And it was a gold coin.