Proof vs. Proof-like : What is more "valuable"?

EDIT: I apologize in advance for the long read - my curiosity takes its toll... I put in bold the more concise points (via question), and underlined the conditions so you can skim through. But first, here are obligatory pictures for a long read, and a fun little game that has to do with my point. Can you spot the proof strike(s)? No cheating! You know what I'm talking about... don't use that.









Assuming that the mintage for both proof and proof-like strikes are the same, and that separate dies were used to make each (e.g. proof dies weren't recycled for business strikes), which strike type is more valuable in market terms (not subjectively)?

Does the amount of care that went into the proof's die, planchet, and process make it the clear winner? Or, is it the unlikelihood that a Mint State coin ends up looking so close to or "indistinguishable" from a proof, that its rare occurrence would make it far more valuable?

And, unlike the distinguishable Morgan dollars shown above, what if a proof-like coin looks so proof that it's "indistinguishable" from a proof strike (but let's say, save for the experts using high-tech equipment, that you know that it's a non-proof strike because it came in a bank roll and proof strikes were all already pre-issued)? If everything was the same, including the relief height, appearance, etc., wouldn't this "indistinguishable" PL strike be more valuable? Or, if it's that indistinguishable, even to the experts, are they essentially the same? (Is that getting too philosophical? Or is that pragmatic philosophy?).

Are we at that stage where business strike coins may possibly result in a "proof" strike but is actually a PL coin? I'd think that these PL strikes would have to be first strike coins - though, is it far-fetched that in the near future the Mint's dies and machinery would be upgraded to generate more detailed coins with greater durability for their MS dies? In that case, I'd think that proof coins as we know it today would cease to be in production, proof coins would be improved significantly from their MS counterparts, or MS coins would intentionally be struck "weaker". The more pertinent question is, are there any examples of proof-like strikes that look 99.99% proof?

On that note and as an aside, what if the US Mint used (artificial or natural) diamond encrusted dies for greater durability and thus fewer die replacements en masse, just as its used for industrial tools such as saws and other blades? I'd think that'd save the Mint some money if they go that route.

 

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A PL business strike is worth more than a typical proof strike. I doubt that you would ever find a PL coin with ALL of the characteristics of a proof coin.

Chris

 

I suspect that it depends on the series/date. For example, a type piece Morgan dollar is around 1000 bucks in PCGS MS65 DPML while a proof piece is around 6 grand in Proof 65.

That said, I personally would prefer the business strike.

 

@iPen

1895! They didn't make business strikes that year in Philly.

Chris

 

Hey Chris, don't give up on the 10k. I still have hope lol

 

Since Morgan Dollar Proof dies usually went into Business Strikes afterward, it's already at the point with them where the difference between a Proof and a DMPL Business Strike is someone's opinion.

 

You've lost me. I must be slow today.

Chris

 

Very true, but in terms of moderns, I'd take the PL business strike if it were the same grade as the same coin in proof.

Chris

 

But wouldn't the relief heights of a multiple-struck Proof strike coin be discernible, down to the fractions of a mm? Thereby, wouldn't the coin experts look for a minimum threshold height for various points of the devices?

 

No. It's the same die. When the die is filled, it's filled and the coin can't get any bigger. Normal production variance would exceed any measurable "difference." You have to tell from the sharpness of the rims and devices. There's no doubt in my mind that there are Proof Morgans in Business Strike slabs and vice versa.

 

Apparently some believe that they struck 10k 95p business strikes. I'm brain farting in the specifics of why though, I think it was from a mint correspondence letter of the day but no other records have come to light to confirm and not a single coin has surfaced.

 

There's more demand for business strikes than Proofs. It's true the demand for PL's isn't very strong but the demand for attractive business strikes is huge so PL's always have a following.

Some '88-D cents are almost indistinguishable from Proofs. PL's do usually lack the crisp strike of a Proof.

 

According to www.coinauctionshelp.com with excerpt below, it emphasizes how differently proof and business strike dies were prepared:

"A Deep Mirrored coin will display shallow "striations" in the fields from when the metal was stretched or thinned as it was squeezed between the dies. These striations must not impede the reflectivity in the fields for a Morgan to be DMPL, but most were polished off during the basining process so the mirror fields will display greater reflectivity at greater distances. Below is an example of a true Deep Mirror Proof Like Morgan Dollar.



In other words, a Proof Morgan Dollar was struck with a specially prepared Proof die, and a DMPL coin was not. With experience the collector will be able to distinguish the different characteristic(s) between the die strikes so as not to confuse a Proof with a DMPL coin. However, PR Morgan Dollars are rare, so the main point is distinguishing between coins with "normal" and striated fields and deeply reflected mirrored fields."

 

According to the Red Book of Morgan Dollars, that was deemed to be an accounting entry error in the annual report.

Chris

 

They're wrong by implying that every_single Business Strike die was polished so poorly that it shows polishing lines. It's not so much die preparation as the strike process itself which distinguishes the quality of a Proof. In fact, most of that monologue is either downright incorrect or deceptive in context. It implies that different dies were used for business strikes and Proofs, which is absolutely untrue of Morgans.

If they're correct, riddle me this: How many Proofs can a Proof Die strike? 100? 200? What do they do then - do they repolish it, or retire it?

What kind of fields will the first 5 Business strikes from an untouched Proof die (one which struck Proofs earlier that day) look like? I'll tell you what they'll look like - Proofs.

Except for the differences that article doesn't mention.

 

I like proofs but PL and DMPL have a needle-in-the-haystack appeal.

 

I thought the difference was that the proof Morgans were struck on a screw press and the business strikes were struck on a toggle press.

 

By the time Morgans were struck, the Mint had Morgan & Orr toggle presses. Some - not all - Proof dies went into Business Strike production after their first duty. One can see these dies called out at VAMworld.


Edit: Hmmm. Seems you're correct, at least for the years I've found specifically called out.

 

I think that the real test is, can I actually tell the difference between a DMPL and Proof Morgan? I have no idea, as I've never seen a DMPL in-person. I'd probably fail to differentiate between the two, and end up settling on Proof because... it's so shiny.

To answer your questions: I don't know. But, I'm learning new stuff everyday with all my curious questions

I think the real test is, can I actually tell the difference between a DMPL and Proof Morgan? I have no idea, as I've never seen a DMPL in-person (or maybe I have seen a DiMPLe? I'm going to coin that phrase moving forward since it's easier to remember and catchier to me, mind anyone else! ). I'd probably fail to differentiate between the two, and end up settling on Proof because... it's so shiny (lame, I know).

 

They're ridiculous. You can quite easily shave using one as a mirror.