PCGS favors "big name" dealers?

Perhaps I am naive to the realities of this coin business, but I am increasingly questioning if the "bell weather" grading agency is as reliable as we would like it to be? Having recently bought many different PCGS MS65 coins of a particular series to complete a set, I was appalled at the seemingly blatent misgrading going on. The coins were purchased on Ebay over several weeks from MANY different sellers, and the common thread was that those purchased from "big name" or recognized dealers were inferior without a doubt. It was not even an attempt at borderline. Several of the culprits exhibited multiple coin dings on the high points or "red" areas outlined in the Official Outline to Grading by PCGS.

I would welcome comments from others out there as to your experiences. I think I've come to realize that those larger coin companies have influence on the market as well as on the revenue of PCGS from their volume. Perhaps the PCGS talent pool has become diluted from the sheer volume of coin grading demands, as is often the case with service companies that grow too fast or can't handle the demand.

Either way, what an extreme disappointment I've had. Frankly, I would like to hold PCGS accountable or at least be able to walk in their offices and say "you've got to be kidding me - tell me this is really an MS65!"

Is there any independent monitoring body out there that I can contact to see if a viloation of trust has occurred? Believe me, I am not just a disgruntled collector who thinks that "my coins are better than that". This is clearly an obvious questionable situation.

Thank you in advance for your kind feedback and suggestions.

Fairtrader

 

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I would just wonder if the PCGS coins you have just bought from name dealers were recently graded, or the usual buy and sell coins that they obtain from the dealer networks or other sources. If you know enough about coins to complete some series in MS65, then you should be able to research the numbers on the holders as to them being recent submissions.
One answer may be that larger dealers may sell some of their certified material that isn`t quite up to snuff on ebay, as opposed to keeping coins with more eye appeal for store or bourse floor sales. I have heard dealers say that "some dealers" operate that way. (not that that dealer himself operates that way, wink)

 

Hell yes! Ur name should be Laura serber

 

I would like to suggest that the grading of coins by the grading service companies (all of them!) are little more than a figment of your immagination. By this i mean that if you compare what they do and how the Wizard of Oz operated, you would see very little difference. You got to start looking behind the curtain to know the truth. Then learn enough to grade you'r own coins.

 

Yeah, that ^

 

PCGS and NGC Defraud Collectors in Favor of Dealers

I was fortunate enough to inherit a large "raw" coin collection from my Grandfather. Well I signed up for a collector account with PCGS and NGC, and began the grading process. Some of the coins came back worth as much 10k, so naturally I sold a few on Ebay to dealers. One day I was bored and I decided to check on the certification numbers for my graded and much to my surprise, these dealers were resubmitted my coins, and coins that were graded MS63-64 were suddenly MS66 and above. Not to mention a Morgan I sent in came back to me as a MS64 and I sold it to a dealer. The dealer resubmits under his dealer account and guess what, his grade is MS66 Vam Broken Bonnet. I started doing experiments, I have distributed to coins to my friends throughout the country, and they seeked out the largest PCGS/NGC authorized dealers in there areas. Long story short, the grades that came back to the dealer nearly tripled the value given under a collector account.

Why do you guys trust these people with your coins? I have been defrauded out of nearly 100k over fraudulent grades. Do the alleged top tier grading companies make errors like not recognizing a MS66 Broken Bonnet Vam.

Last example, I sent a Walker 1917 S OBV to PCGS and NGC it came back questionable mint mark. I gave it to a dealer the grade that came back to him was MS63. Every person that has submitted under a collector account (minus pcgs/ngc insiders) should get together and file a class action lawsuit. These two companies should not be allowed to defraud trusting collectors.

I am going to post all the discrepencies and have also hired an attorney to take out ads in the major newspapers across the country. Stating the facts and letting collectors be the judge.

Good Luck to all of you have been defrauded by PCGS and NGC.

 

Interesting 1st post! You sure do know how to make an entrance... Good luck, I hope it works out for you.

 

:foot-mouth:

:foot-mouth:

 

When NGC & PCGS coins are sent in for regrades they do not keep the same certificate numbers. So I have a little trouble believing what you are saying.

 

You would have had to pay for the VAM attribution service for the VAM to be noted on the slab. So not listing the VAM wasn't an error or oversight on the grading companies part.

Grades fluctuating between collector and dealer accounts has been brought up a number of times. From everything I've heard, the actual graders have no idea who has submitted the coin they are grading.

Also, how do you know the grades of the resubmitted coins? Certs change when they are resubmitted. I know with NGC if you look up a cert number on a coin that has been resubmitted the grade comes up as "deleted" (no other information).

 

To the OP, PCGS and NGC are supposed to be the monitoring bodies, guaranteeing you that the grade the dealer lists is the correct grade. To me, your experiences just prove the fallacy of their argument. Everyone knows there are many coins overgraded out there, as any undergraded ones are quickly cracked out and resubmitted. The net effect of this is that the highest grade you can hope for in a slab is the correct grade, with a very high likelihood it is overgraded.

The only solution? Learn to grade and buy the coin, not the slab. Only buy the coin in person. These are the EXACT things slabs were created to prevent, so tell me, what purpose have they served except to make the grading companies rich? I will grant them the guarantee of a coin being genuine, that is true, but short of that all TPG companies have done is facilitated lazy collectors and allowed shady dealers to sell poor quality coins at inflated prices.

I know, "but Chris, how do you really feel", right?

Chris

 

This thought has struck me again and again, every time I read that cliche...and it's probably the single biggest reason I will not buy any slabbed coin.

I read that time and time again. Someone complains about a grade, or asks about the reliability of a TPG, or is pondering buying a particular coin "Graded OMG104 by Coins be We!" or whatever...and every single time, people on here with superb reputations, decades of experience in the hobby, thousands of coins in their collection, and frequently official titles by their name say the same thing:

"Buy the coin, not the holder"

I'm just a neophyte...I've got less than a decade doing this, and have less in my whole collection than some of you have in single coins. But I'm OBSESSIVE about reason, logic, and prima facie arguments....

And that one has "None Of The Above"

It doesn't even hold water at first glance. If the expert opinion is to buy the coin, not the holder, then the expert opinion is that the coin is more important than the holder.

That's a problem for two reasons.

First, if I'm considering resale value of the coin, either immediately or in the future, then those to whom I am likely to sell the coin, or from whom I am most likely to seek sales advice have just told me that they will consider the coin, regardless of whose holder it's in, or what the holder says.

So guess what...I've just paid extra money for a "certificate" of sorts that will mean NOTHING to the future buyer of the coin from me. Why on EARTH would i want to do that?

Perhaps, instead, I'm NOT interested in resale value, and am instead interested only in the coin itself. in that case, why of COURSE I'm buying the coin and not the holder...I'm purchasing art for the sheer sake of my own enjoyment. Why, again, would I pay extra money for someone ELSE'S opinion on it?

Logic and reason dictate that there is no way around this. As a common collector, I am paying for someone else's assessment of the quality of my coin. EITHER the future buyer will be advised and/or certain to IGNORE that assessment, rendering it worthless, or I will be ignoring it..again rendering it worthless.

But wait, we're then told...the grades assigned by the RESPECTABLE TPGs are NOT worthless! They're a baseline!

That statement can not possibly be accurate.

First, those who make this claim have already told us not to consider the holder when making the purchase. Are they suggesting, then, that we use something as a "baseline" without considering it? How is this possible?

Second, a baseline represents a measurable and REPEATABLE standard, against which other things are compared. Slabs clearly don't meet this criteria, as by definition, even the SAME TPG will often assign different grades to the same coin, not to mention the wide disagreement amongst hobbyists as to WHICH TPG is "the best". How can a standard exist when those who assign it are inconsistent, and those who measure against it can not agree on who's best at assigning it?

Finally, it is demonstrably certain that SOME TPGs assign grades at least partly influenced by profit. TPGs that 'specialize" in assigning high grades, or offer higher grades to higher priced services, etc. We are left, then, to sort out the "honest" graders from the "dishonest" ones, in an industry where ALL of them are competing against each other for a fixed amount of available business.

By which standard, or what evidence, then, are we to determine which TPGs are "most objective"? Simple...by their reputation alone...

Which places us right back at the beginning...we have no recourse bu to trust the subjective opinion of other hobbyists, who SAY that TPG #1 is superior to TPG #2...often while holding, or offering for sale, many coins slabbed by that very TPG.

In summary, here's what we are faced with:

People who stand to benefit from making such an assertion, assert that one TPG is superior, and that their grades serve as a baseline that can not be established by any scientific, statistical, or logical means...either right before, or right after, telling us to ignore them.

Reason is my judge...and reason dictates that unless I desire to trade in subjective interpretations of vague descriptions of loosely defined standards, I will purchase a coin regardless of its holder.

Rendering its holder pointless.

 

In this age of super-counterfeits I think grading, authenticating, and encapsulation are still useful. I have been a NGC certified dealer for a few years now and I can tell you I get NO special treatment. I send in over 1000 coins a year. I can show you several threads where I have posted the coin I was sending in and then the result and it has been inline with the general consensus almost every time.

It's your personal choice not to have your coins certified and I respect it completely. I however find NGC useful and accurate 99% of the time. I know personally people who work at both companies in grading/finalizing and in the upper management of both PCGS & NGC.

It all depends on what you collect. If you are dealing with 4 and 5 figure coins... you'd be a fool not to buy these coins encapsulated by one of the top 2.

 

Do not buy from eBay dealers who don't have pics on their listings of just the slab only, that is what they are selling, the slab not the coin.


If you want consistent coins for the grade then you need to see the coin, correct?

I have experienced and continue to crash course my learning of the TPG services. I only know copper Lincoln wheat cents. What I am finding is that the coin in relation to the grade often diminishes with the certification number. The copper does and will turn in the slab. I also believe that the coins you buy from eBay are often not the best examples with in that grade. In other words, if I had duplicates, I would not sell the best one first.

FWIW for wheaties 35-58 look for dealers who have multiples for sale as if they came from a roll.

Also, that PCGS grade guarantee is exactly that, they will no longer guarantee color on copper coins. PCGS is very well known to have paid out a lot of money for coins overgraded.

Question.. I should know this...How much is this service?

 

ha! best part right there.... The holder is pointless to those who buy the coin, but everything to those who need a shallow validation of their purchase of the coin they bought to their wives, to themselves, to the next person they sell the coin to... There is plenty of room for both in this hobby..


I voiced recently how I thought it was ridiculous that arguments were going back and forth over PCGS "sniffer" and Laser Identification as being something and new as a cutting edge technology. I scratch my head why every coin submitted for grading isn't already scanned and chromatographed. I think it is ridiculous that the TPG's with the amount of revenue they turn is so far behind the times. Especially that one that is publicly traded. It's not like they are handling some low value high volume product. a quarter of 2009's grade guarantee payout would buy a lot of code writing AND.. aren't they centered in the same area that produces all that?

I think that speaks oodles about how a group of good ol' boys control the coin market and are stuck in their ways.

 

How do you mean that collectors control the coin market? Are you saying most dealers are also collectors, and that those who buy from them are something other than collectors?

 

oh yeah.. ya think.....? Go over to CU as a collector and post a question like the OP Posted and see how fast you ganged up on. C'mon.. do it! You know you want to!

we both know it would be deleted as fast as what? lightening? so I ask. is it really a collectors universe or is it dealers universe of gray haired old time collectors who also deal.......? ( i got gray hair BTW

The one thing I have really good current experience in, is being new to the hobby, being outspoken and I can assure you, that across several different venues, there is a prevalence of "old guard" in control.. Certainly this corresponds directly to the core of hobby, yes, yes it does..! as these MB's are the loudest and most prevalent voices within formed by those who are from the old school. right?

Want to track trends? peruse MB's they are instantaneously reactive, controlled by a consistent personality that is comfortable with posting.


So tell me, why do you think that TPG's are just getting around to sniffing coins? Or how about laser identification of a coin. LOL $45 to look and smell a coin? really? LOL