Nazi Germany or Native American symbol countermark?

Hi All

Im trying to play detective on what this coin is - At first I thought it was an anti-Nazi necklace on a British coin (The arrow meaning GO HOME or something)

Thena friend who is a WW2 buff said it might have been a piece used by maybe a secret Nazi organization in the UK

The date, and Country lead me to believe it was the case, but then I found several native American symbols of the swastika with an arrow, meaning Good Luck, and it LOOKS like a native American Thunderbird was punched (poorly) on the Obverse - -

HOWEVER, the Swastika is backwards if it IS native American. Hitler youth used a swastika with Arrow as well?

Maybe it's all coincidence that someone was stamping native american good luck symbols into a 1939 UK coin?

Any thoughts?

 

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A backward swastika is called a sauwastika, and was used in East Indian cultures.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sauwastika

 

I think the 2nd picture seals the deal that it isn't for luck.

 

That's an interesting connotation of that. I wasn't aware of that term or it's double use by those religions, although I was aware of its use by native Americans and in Nepal. It's use in Nepal is supposedly where Hitler pulled it from, as a good luck symbol.

I learn something new every day.

 

I would normally agree but it loos like they were trying to stamp a native american thunderbird which has multiple meanings like life, truth, energy, destiny, etc..

 

Huh... never saw that before. One image does look quite like that and the head is facing in the correct direction. Would've had this pegged for Germany. I am sure we have actual historians on here -- hopefully one will show soon

 

1939 marked the beginning of WWII...........

 

When you have a countermark, especially one as bold as these, you have to have something on the opposite side to give resistance. I think the marks on the obverse of this coin are merely the counterside of the mark punch. They may have an appearance of something significant, but I think they are completely irrelevant (your interpretation of an American thunderbird is more pareidolia than anything else).

 

Do you think it could have been counterstamped by order of the arrow? They have been known to use swastikas in the past before Nazism. That would also explain the arrow and the Thunderbird as both are heavily used even today.

 

It looks like the Thunderbird was struck first, then the swastika and arrow were counterstamped onto the reverse. That would explain why the seems weak and the reverse stamps don't. IMO they it looks way too much and is too sharp to be a dent from the other side.

 

Good explanation on the bird being there first as it definitely is a bird and not a dent. What kind of bird? Eh, not really sure, but it is definitely facing right from our viewpoint which I believe removes it from being Germany now that I paid more attention to it.

 

The Thunderbird is from Cherokee folklore and was believed to have supported tribes in battle by creating storms and thunder/lightning.

 

I’ll go with Occam’s Razor on this one. Swastika (whatever direction it faces) on a 1939 British coin signifies support of Nazi Germany by someone. Cool to ponder but I highly doubt it has anything to do with Native Americans... as mentioned the Eagle is on German coins as well so even if that is a bird, seems to just point to someone pro-Germany punching things into a British coin and not deeper symbolism. IMO.

 

Here's one image of a Thunderbird. There are many more available by simply googling " images of a thunderbird ".
The counterstrike on the coin is definitely a Thunderbird.

 

Better yet, google " images of a Hopi thunderbird ". You'll get images even closer in style to the one on the coin. With more thorough searching through the various Amer-Indian iconography, you probably will find the tribal source of that style of thunderbird and maybe even an exact replica.

 

I can agree with the German theory you propose, however both the swastika and the arrow, and especially the Thunderbird, are very symbolic of American Indian culture and iconography.
The German eagle, though still an eagle, was/is somewhat different than a Thunderbird.This is typical of a WW II German Eagle and Swastika.

 

Native American blanket.


Native American basketball team.


Native American poster.


Last, but not least, a silver bracelet featuring both images under discussion.



So, whether the coin came from a Nazi sympathizer or not, the person who stamped the images seems to be, at the very least, familiar with American Indian/Native American imagery.

 

It just so happens that I'm 1/4 Cherokee, however, the Thunderbird can be found all across American Indian cultures, especially of the South and Southwest.

 

Its definitely interesting -

Im 90% sure the mark on the face is a thunderbird, not the Nazi Eagle -

but the year of the coins significance to the war, and that its from the UK make it feel more Nazi. Also, the iconography of the coin reverse - I assume the woman is facing East, which would technically be pointing towards Germany from great Britain.

I also am not sure why someone in the UK, in 1939, would know that much about the symbolism of the American Indian cultures - Yet there it is on both sides.

 

One can't assume the counterpunch was done in 1939.