Mexican 20 Centavos coin, Liberty Cap w/ Sun Rays, Type 4 (0.720 Silver) question

This is a question about the authenticity of the 1939 Mexican 20 Centavos silver coin pictured below.

I have two coins: i) 1937 Mexico 20 Centavos, Type 4 (0.720 Silver) coin and ii) a 1939 Mexico 20 Centavos, Type 4 (0.720 Silver) coin. The 1937 I estimate to be at a general grade of 'Good' by my reckoning and the 1939 coin, well it might be a very weakly struck BU with a die crack and some die deterioration, IF it is authentic...

I am using the 1937 coin against the 1939 coin as my point of comparison as I only own these two coins to do this comparison in hand. I will also preface this with, I do not know Mexican coins well enough to spot the problems regarding authenticity, but here's what I see:

The 1939 coin is weak, struck from a worn die as evidenced by the die crack on the obverse, running horizontally across the sun rays at the top center and just above the liberty cap. The reverse has a 'funny' rub/wear pattern that appears darker across the eagle's higher points but under scrutiny with the naked eye the mound the eagle and snake are perched on seems very weak for a BU coin. All of the devices look okay with one exception that I will note at the end. There appears to be some luster but not a lot of cartwheel effect and I am uncertain but accept that this coin may well have been dipped (cleaned) as there is the slightest 'look' of a halo around the devices to that of the fields, particularly on the obverse, as seen by the naked eye. Now under examination with a loupe and small microscope (30x power) my biggest question is in regards to the reverse denticles running around the rim on the reverse. They look plain shoddy and I hope my images below are clear to show you to see what I see. The devices around the edge look like a crappy cast that failed, like the shapes themselves collapsed… OR is this typical of an overall very weakly struck coin from a mint that went through years and years of quality issues, changing compositions and simply lacked the equipment to produce something better?

Is the 1939 authentic or not? If it is authentic, would you give it a BU or AU, cleaned or not???

Weights:
• 1937 20 centavo = 3.36 grams (total weight in a US half dollar 2x2 + 3 staples)
• 1939 20 centavo = 4.24 grams (total weight in a US quarter dollar 2x2 + 4 staples)


I greatly appreciate your comments and assistance. :smile


1937 Mexico 20 Centavos used here for comparison to the 1939 below:







1937 Close-up images of the denticles around inner rim:








1939 Mexico 20 Centavos -- The questionable coin. Please note reverse rim/denticles:






1939 Close-up images of denticles around inner rim, reverse:











Close-up images of die-crack across sun rays above liberty cap, reverse:

 

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Evening bump! Thanx! :cheers:

 

I have a 1937 which I have doubt is genuine since I received it in change in the early 1980's from a small tienda on the south shore of Lake Chapala in Jalisco, Mexico. It would grade XF or AU and has a golden tone. Without 2x2's and staples it weighs 3.33 grams.
Regarding your 1939, I think it has certainly been dipped. Those lousy denticles could be die erosion. The die crack IMO adds to the possibility that the coin is authentic. I do not like the sunken look on the the 2 in 0.720. Looking at the coin under the scope, the letters should rise up at nearly a 90 degree angle from the field and the tops of the letters should be flat. How does the reeding look?
I'll try to post some pics of mine when I find the spare extra time.

 

Thanks Rick, I appreciate your response. I too am leaning towards authentic and cleaned. The weak-strike with die crack and die deterioration all add up to that estimation. The reeded edge of the 1939 looks fine compared to the 1937 I have. All the same one must remain alert and watch for fakes, even if faking such a coin of minor numismatic value and even less intrinsic bullion value would even be worth it for a counterfeiter. I guess it's the fact that it should have a precious metal composition that has me questioning the coin after spotting the poor quality of this specimen.

When you get the chance, I'd appreciate seeing the coin you have in question as well. Thanks.

 

Are there many fakes of these types of coins? Mexican 20 centavos of that period are usually fairly common and not overly expensive, to my knowledge.
Here are a couple of mine.... I'm pretty sure the 1943 has been dipped.

 

and a 1925, and 28. The 1925 seems to have the mintmark worn off...or removed by someone.
I think the 1927 10 centavos is my favorite of my lot.

 

I don't know. I'd like to know. It stands to reason that they could be given some of the questionable things that go on in numismatics and given the quality of the strike and certain quality issues with the devices I pointed out. If the coin I questioned turns out to be fake, then yes I suppose there could be fakes a foot, how many is nearly impossible to say. One is enough though. Commonality of a series doesn't reduce the chance that a counterfeiter might avoid that coin, instead it might be easier to slip one by or go unnoticed. Perhaps there are scores of them, by volume it wouldn't require much silver to fake such coins (these are like 0.193 of an oz. of silver) and selling a vast quantity of fakes could be as lucrative as selling a few, well made, high grade key coins. Both instances carry potential risks of being detected as one presents more opportunities for detection and the other fewer coins being more closely scrutinized by more interested and sophisticated collectors.

All of your coins you have posted, even the well worn and circulated ones, have better denticles around the reverse rim than the one I am questioning in the OP, which continues to make me wonder about the coin I posted being a fake. Yet it could just be die deterioration issues.
​

 

Hm. I understand what you are saying about fakes and everything. I surely haven't ran into, or heard of any fake common date Mexican 20 centavos, that I know of, that is. And like you said, just one detected fake would be enough to throw things about other similar coins into question. However I have heard of other various common date coins from other countries being counterfeited en masse, or at least in fairly large quantities.
Tough call on your coin.... I am not at all knowledgeable enough to make any determination. I do see what you mean about the denticles, but aside from that, it looks pretty good to me, but you did said it was light, 3.36 grams in the 2x2 you said, and the coin should weigh 3.3333grams by itself.... so that is a bit odd.

 

Thanks. I am reassured by your thoughts on the coin as well as the earlier comments that it's probably okay and no fake. I too tend to lean that way looking at a number of other aspects like the die crack for instance. :smile

 

Well the die crack is a good indicator, if you look closely at most of the coins I put pictures of up, they nearly all have die cracks somewhere. The 1928 has a big one around 7 o' clock on the reverse, and the little 1927 10 centavos has them all over.
Also, the 1939 coin of yours is quite attractive, even if it may have been dipped, it's quite pretty.

 

Thanks. I do see the big die crack on your '28 and I also detect similar wear / rub patterns on the high points of the eagle on your coins that seem consistent with my '39 coin, further indicating to me that mine likely was dipped.

 

Well, dipped or not, it's still a pretty nice coin with good details.
All mine came from the local coin shops 'foreign silver bin' which was a tray they kept behind the counter full of whatever foreign silver they had, all being sold for melt value. Sometimes some good stuff would slip past and make it's way into this foreign silver bin.... such as the 1927 Mexico 10 centavos.... I found some good coins in there back then..... good times.
Are you starting a collection of Mexican Silver coins? or just adding to your World coin collection?

 

Mainly, I am just going through my world coins that I have acquired over the years and trying to label and categorize them so I've been posting a few questions now an then. Since I was scrutinizing this piece I noticed the problems I cited and wanted to see what more informed collectors of Mexican coinage may have to say about it. Of course now that I am focusing on these old world coins I am finding new interest and may become tempted to buy some in higher grades. I am also interested in Mexican Libertads (bullion) coins and do currently buy these on occasion.

 

I need to proof read better. I forgot NO in front of doubt in my previous post. The coin is genuine.
When I discovered this golden coin w/0.720 in my change at the tienda, I showed it to an old man who was also enjoying a cold Superior (beer) and asked in my poor Spanish - "Es oro?". He took the coin and rubbed it awhile with his rough thumb, then returned it with an exposed silver spot saying - "No. Es plata". A lesson on toning for me.
The first 2 photos were shot using an Ott Light and shows the color fairly accurate. The 3rd photo shows tiny pimples in and around the numbers and devices which on many coins would suggest being counterfiet - cast or spark erosion (EDM) die struck. The other photos show die cracks and details of the denticles. Note the rise and flatness of the letters. I hope these phots are not to big.

 

Really great photos! I think some of the pimples around the denticles are similar to what I am seeing on my coin too. That coin of yours has tons of die cracks too! Very interesting coin. Thanks for the background on its discovery and for sharing this one in the thread too.

 

Thanks for thread. It reminded me of the batch of Mexicans that I forgot about. I enjoy coins that bring back memories (a personal history so speak) much more than ones that were simply purchased from a vendor.

It just occurred to me that possibly your 20c may have been whizzed. That may explain the raised metal on the edges of the denticles and few other spots such as the S in centavos.

 

Yes rick, very nice photos, and good info.

I like Libertads alot myself, but only have a 1985 Onza, and a 1996 1/4 onza... I always liked the smaller denominations of the Libertad. They're all beautiful coins though.

 

I like the edge lettering on the earlier style.