Is there an 1817 Ferdin VII 8 reales Zs A.G.?

Does the coin exist? I found this coin in a bunch of mexican coins and was trying to find information on the net but couldn't find it, or a sample. Except for this site http://oferta.dereto.com.mx/id=21355859_8-reales-1817-zs-ag-ferdin-vii which is in spanish. It says the coin is for sale for $1000. The one I found is in better condition.

Can anyone give me info? I did not believe the $1000 of course. In fact, I just thought it's a copy or something. Again, are there replicas of this coin? I don't have a camera right now but sure will post photos next time if you guys ask for it.

 

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1817 ferdin coin photos

Hi guys! It's me hobbyist. I was having problem logging in to my account. Don't know why. Does it have something to do with logging in another computer?

Anyway, here are the pictures for the ferdin I have above. If you know something about it, please kindly share. I know nothing about Spanish coins, or even their authenticity.

COIN WEIGHT: 26.30 grams
DIAMETER: 39.2-39.5 widest (it's not a perfect round coin).

 

middle right coin is yours, 8r Zs A • G

Cant say anything about authenticity or price atm but could give you and estimate of worth IF real when I get home tonight, just so you know this whole group of coins sold for 650 USD

 

That coin must be fake, the design is very crude.

 

This coin type is very crude. If anything its not crude enough to be real

 

Oh come on Drusus, he looks like he's laughing. What was there in Mexico for the Spanish king to laugh about in 1817?

 

The example posted from CoinArchives has a different placed legend. The mint mark on the OP coin is into the base of the left pillar and the example shown has it where they normally are, which is just above the pillars base. That creates doubt as to authenticity but maybe that year they were like that, so I'd find more examples (1817) to see where their legends are.

Currently, I'd have to say it's a counterfeit but I'm not 100% positive.

Ribbit

Ps: Acanthite makes a good point, plus, I just noticed the bust is not well stuck and considering how well struck the legends are, it looks like a transfer forgery that didn't transfer well.

 

Thank you for the photos drusus. And thanks guys for discussing. Really of big help and triggered my interest in these coins more. The middle right coin is not 1817 though, right?

Have you checked the website I mentioned? Even if the specimen he is selling is real, why such a high asking price? The date is not even readable. The seller must know nothing about such coins, right?

One thing I've noticed when I compared the coin I have with the coins in your photos. The pillar on the left of the shield seem to rest on top of "ET" in all the coins. While the pillar on my coin just stands on the same level with "ET". Is this indicative of a fake coin? I compared it with the 1817 coin posted on the website I mentioned above and it is the same. Question is, if a real 1817 coin should have the left pillar resting on "ET", as with all the other dates, then the coin I have is definitely counterfeit so with the one on the website above. Sigh :-(

But more so, why is the weight and diameter of the 1817 coin I posted just almost the same as the weight and diameter of such coins as specified in this website - http://www.coins.nd.edu/ColCoin/ColCoinText/Sp-milled.5.html

And I do not quite understand - if the design of a coin is crude, it must be fake?

sorry if you may find my thoughts or findings stupid. I really am not an expert at coins. Just scrutinizing. Of course I'll believe in what you guys say.

 

The way I see it, they had been making these for quite a while so why, in a middle year, does one show up crudely made? I would see the first years being crude but as time went along, they would have made them better, not worse (generally speaking).

So that is why I would see a crudely made one being indictative of being a counterfeit. But I also don't know much about these so maybe the experts can explain it better? :bow:

Ribbit

 

The position of the pillar and legend can be different on these because (I'm fairly sure by 1817 this was still the case), that the die was created using a set of punches. Thus design elements can vary position with respect to eachother from die to die. However, I would agree that the word ET is fairly consistent in the examples Drusus shows compared to yours.

Weight can be duplicated in a fake, in fact most fakes made today are the correct weight and possibly the correct metal alloy as well.

The edge device is another tool used to authenticate these, but that can be duplicated, so is not definitive.

One thing that bothers me a great deal about the coin is that the bust 'fades' into to fields, particularily on the back of the head. That to me is a red flag.

EDIT: I'm not an expert either, wait and see more opinions on your coin.

 

Here is an example from Heritage, the reverse looks very similar to the OP's coin:

 

good point...all the examples I have seen have a full head mass with hair lines and if it is worn, it turns into one continuous mass and not broken into chanks like that.

 

look at the new example, I think the one posted originaly is fake because of what acanthite pointed out, look at the back of the head on both. dunno, maybe its just the one posted above has much more wear on the back of the head and the original posted has less wear in that area and is showing how the back of the head looks without wear. I couldnt say for sure....but those do seem to be matches.

 

Thank you acanthite and handsometoad. I'm really learning now. I'll really wait for more opinion on the coin. Really doesn't matter if the verdict will be "it's a counterfeit!" hahaha

Honestly guys I purchased the coin just this morning at silver value. I visited a local melting shop looking for US-PI coins and found the 1817 coin with a bunch of mexican coins. I'm also not familiar with mexican coins. The 1817 coin was new to me so I asked the owner if I could buy it (at silver bullion value of course). He had no idea what the coin was aside from it being "silver", "old" and "meltable". it was going to the melting pot anyways so he sold it for a few bucks. i'm in the Philippines, btw.

Coins at the local melting shops usually (or almost always) come from the old folks who reside in remote areas in the province, and they don't have the ability or capacity to counterfeit coins,, muchso that they don't even have any knowledge about collectable coins and their value. If it's a genuine coin, surely it was brought by the Spaniards who have colonized the country in the 1800s and ended up in the hands of some who held on to them as souvenir. If its counterfeit, I don't know where it came from. Definitely from another country. China perhaps? And why land in a remote city in a remote province? Important forgeries should be found in the mainland and not sold for it's bullion value. hmmmmn One question, when did "forgers" start forgering such coins? How about the origin of the forgeries for Spanish coins?

Wheew! again the verdict will come from you guys. I watch too many detective stories that's why I ask too many questions.

 

Wow the photos displayed by acanthite is the same as the photos displayed on the website I indicated above.

 

That's an interesting history of how you came about the coin. A modern-day fake would probably be produced in China, very unlikely to have been made in some local village. Counterfeits were produced as well, contemporary to the originals, but the idea was to pass them as real in transactions, not as numismatic items. However, I think most contemporary counterfeits were well underweight for obvious reasons.

 

They certainly are. The pics I showed are from a Heritage auction sale, sold as part of a lot of three.

 

I don't know much about coins dating back to 19th century but thought of sharing this info.
Today on 29th of September 1833; King Ferdinand VII of Spain died and his 2 year old daughter Isabella II was proclaimed Queen.

 

The price in the original link is in Mexican Pesos. $1000 Pesos = ~$90 US

 

Hahahaha! So that's why the price looked unbelievable. Its mexican pesos. hahaha

I am more convinced it's a counterfeit. To the melting pot it goes!! haha