How do you value a coin with AU-Details?

I recently found a nice looking Morgan dollar in my mom's safe deposit box. She received it as a Christmas present when she was a child (sometime between 1947-1955). I'm not a fan of the Morgan series but it looked to me like the coin was just minted yesterday. I did some research online and decided to send it off to a TPG to see what it might be worth and to get it slabbed for protection.

It came back "Surfaces Smoothed - AU Details." It's been in the bank vault for 70 years so I'm not sure when it was smoothed or what that really means. My question is how do I determine a value? Right now it's sitting on the lazy Susan in the middle of the dining room table. She likes to pick it up to look at from time to time.

Can anyone explain what "surfaces smoothed" means. All that I could find online is that it seems to have nefarious connotations. Does that mean it's only worth melt? I see the lines on the surface of the coin but they look to be uniform across the front and back of the coin, so I thought that they might have been in the blank when the coin was minted.

Any opinions would be appreciated. Thanks

 

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NGC lists Details coins under their AU50 column for auction prices realized, here https://www.ngccoin.com/coin-explor...-dollars-1878-1921/17080/1878-cc-1-ms/?des=ms. Selecting view all shows more, here https://www.ngccoin.com/auction-cen...1878-cc-1-ms-fgrade-50-tgrade-50-coinid-17080. You can search Heritage Archives but you'll need a free login to see the prices. There are 3 1878-CC sold there with "smoothed" in the grade, all around $150.

 

"smoothing" is probably more common on ancient coins, but this article has a good description: https://www.forumancientcoins.com/numiswiki/view.asp?key=smoothing

As for value.... I generally start at 50% of a problem-free coin, and adjust up or down based on how distracting or bad the problem is. NGC lists AU-50 at about $300, so @KBBPLL 's estimate of $150 is nearly spot on.

 

2023 Red Book value somewhere between $375 and $400 in low/high AU condition. Your mom was smart to keep it safe and in good condition for you to cherish. Thanks for sharing.

 

Any chance of seeing the slab please @Whendric because to be honest looking at those pics I'm seeing something totaly different? As for "smoothed surfaces" see those lines that run straight from one end of the coin to the other? those are caused by a rotary buffer used to clean jewelry "castings" and this looks like a poorly made casting loaded with air bubbles. maybe it's just my old eyes seeing carbon spots as bubbles but that's what I see from these pic's. I honestly hope I'm wrong and they are just carbon spots and your coin is real, but looking at these pics... I wouldn't buy it for melt...

 

"smoothed surfaces" are often applied to coins with deep corrosion. Coins with environmental damage or something like that. The remnant pits you see are most likely the corrosion that they just couldn't remove. Yes, the smoothing is often done mechanically, similar to whizzing (which is specifically a dremel or something similar), but it applies to more techniques. Pits on a cast coin are also fairly similar in color to the rest of the coin, since they were made during production. The fact that these are dark and the rest of the coin is light implies a different problem.

A cast coin wouldn't have the crisper details of a genuine coin (like this one does) - especially a poorly cast coin with that many bubbles. If you look at the crispness of the lettering, it indicates a die-struck coin, but the dark pits are probably from corossion.

 

I would never add to the info already offered These coin talk peps know they're stuff!

 

Being an 1878-CC, there is value above melt even in AU details (if it was a common date, then it would be worth the same as junk silver-which still has a premium to melt for Morgans-around $5-$10 lately). The price of $150 you were quoted is a reasonable one as eBay sales have been in the $170-$250 range. Take out the fee, and 150 is about what I would expect (although it could do a little better as someone might like the look enough for a hole filler in their set compared to something that is too dark or holed).

 

Guys, is 50% of AU-50 value for a Details coin a good rule-of-thumb for a coin where numismatic value dwarfs melt value ?

 

On your 1907 cent, is that a clash obverse top?

 

Yeah, I never noticed it until I posted it here on CT sometime in the past...cool little extra bonus!

 

It's a case by case basis. Here it works but in other examples it could be more or less. It also depends on the reason for the details. Something like questionable color or a light cleaning would be closer to full AU 50 value than harshly cleaned/polished/holed/etc.

 

I view melt-value as an absolute bottom. The coin weighs a certain amount, and, per the amount of metal, it's worth this much. It doesn't matter how mangled, scraped, mutilated it is... 100 grams of gold is worth 100 grams of gold, assuming it's the correct weight/purity of gold.

The numismatic value is the premium on top of that. A pristine MS-61 is going to be worth less than an MS-62. A cleaned UNC is going to be worth less than that. And AU is going to be worth less than that.

The intrinsic value will never change - it's based on the pure weight of silver or gold. The numismatic value will change based on the condition or date/mintmark of the coin.

Now.... your question applies to a coin where the numismatic value far exceeds the intrinsic value of the coin. For a coin like the Morgan above... melt value is in the $15-$20 range, depending on where silver is. Almost all of the value is numismatic. When you have a coin with a melt value of $20, and a numismatic value of $300.... there's a lot more play. And yes, for something like this, where almost all of the value of the coin is numismatic... 50% is a pretty good rule.

 

It's a perfectly appropriate rule-of-thumb for those cases where it works and not appropriate for those cases where it doesn't.

Seriously, I usually start thinking about the value of details coin at the 50% point but it can go up or down from there in greater or lesser degree depending upon a multitude of factors. And that is why there are no price guides for details coins.

I was at the Lakeland Collectorama Show a couple of weeks back and came upon a decent-looking Capped Bust Half Dime in a NGC Unc-Details-Cleaned holder. Not a particularly rare variety at R-4, but it was actually nice looking and would have filled an open hole if available for the right price. What's the right price? Greysheet said $825 for an MS-63. The dealer spent five minutes and could not figure out what he wanted to ask for the coin so I just made him an offer of $350. He literally took him another two minutes to think about it before saying no. Worth it at $350, to me, but not a dime more. What's it worth to someone else? Who knows.

 

Thank you all for all of the information. Corrosion is something that I never considered. I'm also not sure why the AU details instead of UNC details. It's clear to me that this coin was never in a bag or circulated. I have never seen a cheek that clean before. That's part of the reason why I'm not really a fan of the Morgan dollars, because of all of the bag marks. In my opinion, it takes away from the eye appeal.

I can imagine this coin spending it's first 70 years in a roll in a vault somewhere only to be released when given to my Great Aunt Margaret in the early 50's. This coin obviously pre-dates the GSA hoards, what were the chances that UNC 1878 CC rolls would have been available at that time? She could have picked it from the Treasury itself. I think back then, it was open and you could get coins from the actually Treasury Building.

Here is a photo in the slab and a couple photos that I took of it raw before I sent it in. The strike is so crisp, I can't see how it got AU instead of UNC details. I mean you can see the bands on the eagle's talons. It just took my breath away when I pulled out from the back of the safe deposit box.

 

I’m seeing an MS coin but dead in terms of any luster.

 

I guess after being interested in coins so long, "IT'S ALL ABOUT ME" in that I decide if the price of the coin is worth it for me. I don't collect in the upper atmosphere ( only enough specimens to count on your fingers or about $ 5,000 level ) If a coin doesn't appeal to me and begs to join my collection it stays on their pal, or table. I
put the cost as the second criteria. More artist these days than scientist I guess.

Jim

 

That's what I saw as well. I mean, I don't collect the series and I haven't spent years looking at them but I did go to the PCGS website and compared the coin in hand to their photo library and thought that it could be a MS65 or maybe a MS66. All of the coins in their reference photos had more bag marks though.

I thought the pristine cheek and the talon detail might give it a boost but I'm obviously not an expert in the series.