Help with Tetradrachm (real or replica)

Greetings all,

This is actually my first post on the forum. I bought an auction of misc. stuff and inside I found a coin which is most definitely at a minimum a replica of an athena/owl tetradrachm. My question to the crowd, is can you provide me any insight on the key indicators or replica vs. original? Here are a few photos of mine. I have a few other weird items in the lot too, but they wouldn't count as ancient coins I don't think:

 

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The coin has a bit of a cast look (porous). What does the edge look like? Do you see a casting seam? What does it weigh?

 

Here's some additional photos of the edge and weight:

 

I think it is a replica. Regular Athena tetradrachm weighs around 16-17g. The coin also lacks details on the Athena helmet and her ears. Olive leaves feels too big. Athena's chin/neck area doesn't seem right, and the Owl proportion also look strange. I would recommend goggling "Attica tetradrachm" and use the images there as comparisons.

 

Thank you for the insight, i felt that the head of mine didn't seem as 3 dimensional compared to reach tetredrachm. Do you happen to know if replicas were often made in actual silver?

 

Cast fake. 100% sure. This is what it should look like

 

I don't think replicas will use real silver, unless they are specifically made for wearable jewelry. Most likely made of lead or other light metals. Easy to cast from mold.

 

With all due respect, I wouldn't call that a typical example, it looks more like an eastern imitation!

 

@
Jay GT4

Do you have more information about your coin?

Are die matches or die links to 100 % authentic specimens in museum, old collections or from excavations known?

Do you have literature references, is an example from same dies mentioned in literature?

I do not like the style of your coin and flan shape!
There exist Beirut forgeries with almost identical reverse die only difference I can see in pictures is the middle of the olive sprig where a berry should be at the end on reverse (seems to be sharpener on your coin).
The berry is of course missing on your coin and the Beirut fakes.

The only explanation I have is either that these Beirut forgeries are recutted transfer die fakes and that they use an authentic coin with the same reverse die as your coin as mother.

Or pictures are missleading and same die and Beirut forgeries are only transfer die fakes without recutting.

Or if same reverse die as the Beirut fakes it could be modern die fake.

Or modern dies which have been recutted.
I know that Beirut forgers have recutted modern dies and recutted transfer dies and added or changed or removed symbols and so on

https://www.coincommunity.com/forum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=184945

http://forgerynetwork.com/asset.aspx?id=z9Krrs7eOjA=

http://forgerynetwork.com/asset.aspx?id=GVTEbV6F12c=

http://forgerynetwork.com/asset.aspx?id=M8PlHGcEF8s=

 

If I were to make forgeries of valuable coins and wanted to sell them for $$$, I'd use the correct metal. Some fake denarius or thalers are sometimes silver, as well as there are fake solidi and aurei made in gold. I'm not an expert at all in athenian coinage but I don't see why crooks wouldn't do their fake tetradrachms in silver, even if it's not easy, considering they could sell it for much more than a bad looking fake made of tin or lead.
Of course, the bad and tourist fakes are almost never in silver.

Whatever, this one is fake 100% sure.

 

My coin came from Robert Kokotailo of Calgary Coin, a dealer who I consider to be an authority on spotting fakes. I believe he acquired the coin from CNG. There is no sign of it being cast and no seam along the edge and it is not a match to the coins you posted. Many dealers have seen this coin in hand and have never questioned its authenticity. I have absolutely no reason to doubt it is anything but an authentic coin. The photo is not very good but I will try and take a new photo today.

 

The reverse die is almost completely identical (possibly completely identical and pictures are misleading), this means that this coins must be related to each other. And some differences can be from striking and different die state, too.
Look at the OWL, half moon, the beak of the owl, the feets etc, the missing berry.
Such accordances can not be a coincidence!
Free hand copies of coins always show significant differences, which are not visible here.

Maybe you can explain me why the owl is almost the same or completely the same on your coin and the Beirut fakes?

I am curious and still learning ^^

I never said that your coin must be fake but it is at least connected to this fakes.
And no one is perfect even the best can make mistakes, all experts have their weakness if it comes to coins they are not familiar with.
I do not like the short and round flan and the "toning" and the style but we are here talking about a possibly ancient eastern imitation so they can look different than normal Athen tetradrachms.

You can take from every authentic coin impression and then produces fakes with them. it is possibly that an impression of such an authentic eastern imitation tetradrachm from the same dies as your coin was used to produce this Beirut fakes.

That a coin is related to fakes is not affecting authenticity but it means that the authenticity must be chekced very carefully!

If proven authentic coins from your dies or die linked to your coin would be known it would speak for authenticity. (museum with good pedigree, old collection published or from excavations)

 

What I can say for sure is that your coin cannot be of an Athenian mint. Look at the owl's talons; I have not seen such talons on any Athenian mint of the mass coinage period or afterwards. 16.74g is also underweight (but still possible).

Collectors are reluctant to provide negative comments on the precious coins of other collectors. I recall when I said that an AV Athenian coin posted in this forum was in my opinion ugly and everybody jumped on me. So you chose who are your fellows: those who sugarcoat the truth and flatter you or those who say what they honestly believe.

And would you expect from a dealer to start a fight with one of his colleagues and what would be his gain in such an occasion?

 

I'm not saying they aren't "Connected" as you say and I'm not offended by bringing this information forward. I've contacted the dealer to see if he can shed any light on the issue or if he has any other relevant information.

 

I've started a new thread over at Forum for my coin so as not to cause confusion with the original coin posted above.

https://www.forumancientcoins.com/board/index.php?topic=118127.0

 

faker de fake

 

It really hurts to see so many new posters to this group showing coins that are the worst level of tourist fakes but it is getting to the point tat it would be unusual to see a first post from someone that showed a real owl. We often say that we can NEVER say a coin is genuine based solely on a photo but it is often very possible to say that a coin is a fake. The style and fabric is not even close to anything made in Athens or the other ancient cities that copied there types. It is not 'maybe' a fake. It is a fake.

A scale that reads only to whole grams is not recommended for coin use. eBay sells cheap .01g models for low prices. Buy one. While the tetradrachm of Athens should weigh 17g they also made a single drachm that is 1/4 the size of a tetra(Greek for 4)drachm which is a lot closer to the 5g item but this is not one of those either. Athens made this general style coin for a couple centuries and the specifics of style changed quite a bit during that time. Collectors wit even a little interest in the subject learn to distinguish the general groups of these. Specialists learn to recognize a few dozen variations and desire to own them all. The fact that your coin is not an exact match for any one coin is not a sign it is fake but the fact that it bears no resemblance to any of them most certainly is a problem. I am not a specialist in these. I own very few. I hope you will decide to buy another ancient soon but, this time, patronize a specialist dealer in ancient coins who serves beginning collectors and can provide a coin of which you can be happy for many years to come.

A single drachm (my only one and not a nice one):


A Classical period 5th century BC tetradrachm:


A 4th century tetradrachm with a small testcut to be sure the coin was solid silver:


This 5th century tetradrachm was test cut and revealed a copper core. This explains why so many of these coins are seen with test cuts.

 

Here you go, my point proven
https://www.acsearch.info/search.html?id=1276052

 

After so many hoots in this thread my flock would like to rub feathers with the others

 

Nice owls!

I've put all relevant info on the Forum thread. Some interesting observations over there as well.

I'm sure this one I have is authentic!