Hello! I am assuming that most coins will have details raised above the surface of the coin on both sides, which in theory should mean that both of the dies that stamp the planchets are incuse. But if both the obverse and reverse dies are incuse, then how does a die clash happen if there is just an empty space where the incuse dies meet? Obviously, I'm not getting something, and part of my problem is that I am a visual learner for anything technical. My thanks in advance to whoever can help me by explaining this error!
Thank you, Danomite. Unfortunately, I still could not understand the answer to my problem from the site's brief explanation, and the Mad Die Clashes website that it links to is no longer visible. I do appreciate the link, though.
There is not always empty space where they meet. The obverse and reverse have different designs, field area, depth of relief and coin or medal orientation. When the dies meet, with totally different designs and fields, metal moves and a clash is formed of the opposite die(s). If the dies have different hardness, than only one die will leave a clash. Or a more pronounced clash than the softer die. In order to not leave a clash the dies would have to have the exact same design and mirror each other. They would also have to be in perfect alignment and the same hardness.
Pushing a coin into some modeling clay or puddy can produce a good visual what a die face looks like. Do both sides.
When the two dies hit each other when there is no coin planchet for them to hit, they hit each other and the design from one stamp imprints itself on the other. Then, when a coin planchet comes through, the imprints are still there from when the two dies hit each other, and the imprints show on the coin.
Even if there is no blank in between the die faces when they come together, it stands to reason that they should not touch each other. Now, away from reason and to reality, die clashes DO occur, so the two die faces will whack each other if there is no blank to be struck. Clashed die coins exist, ergo dies clash.
I really, really like your question! I understand it. You're not asking what a die clash is. In fact, the essence of your question shows you know what it is, but are having difficulties visualizing HOW it could happen, since the designs on the dies are incused. Let me start by saying I'm NOT an expert (not in the least - by any stretch of the imagination) on the minting process. I'll just be starting the ANA course this fall. Having said that, once at a construction site, I saw a crane lifting a HUGE beam. It must have been over 30 feet long and 3 feet deep. The crane suddenly stopped and I saw the ends of the beam flop up and down, as if it was made of rubber! Boing, boing, boing! All metals can temporarily deform and "give." I think gronnh20's explanations make sense. I would like to add that, sometimes, the chance combination of the 2 design orientations (obv & rev) creates a perfect opportunity for a die clash. I tried to put it in a diagram. See below. The planchet is missing (of course) and a part of the blue die bends an infinitesimal amount (aided by the fact that there's a void space there on the red die) - just enough for the bottom die to puncture the top. I think in addition to metal properties, the "perfect storm" chance combination of peaks and valleys on the opposing dies must play a big part also. I have this 1930 SLQ. Take a look at the dot to the left (our left) of her right knee. That's the "E" from E PLURIBUS UNUM. I'm still scratching my head as to why the "E" from the reverse die would deform the obverse die but the Wings did no apparent damage. Hope my explanation helps. If you come across other answers, please share. I'm really interested in further details because I'm confounded by the same thing you are.
Thank you, Gronnh20. I can take it on faith, I suppose, that there isn't an empty space where the two dies meet, but I am still having trouble envisioning how there can be no empty space if both dies are incuse.
Thank you, JeffC! You understood me absolutely correctly. I do indeed know what a die clash is, as well as that it is, but I still don't know how one is possible, even from your very helpful diagram, which doesn't seem to show the possibility of a die clash. Of course, not all dies are incuse. I know nineteenth to early twentieth century Canadian coins often have convex obverses and concave reverses. Similarly, a book I'm reading on ancient coin collecting, by Wayne Sayles, discusses briefly a particular high relief obverse Greek coin. He says that the metal must flow into what will be the highest points of the obverse, which makes sense on its own. And then he says that the lowest relief area of that particular coin is in the center of the reverse, just as the highest relief area on the obverse is the center of the obverse. He doesn't quite explicitly connect them, but I guess he must be implying that the two must be related. It seems, then, that while the obverse die is concave, producing a convex surface, the reverse die is--or at least was--actually very often convex, thus producing a concave reverse. I can definitely understand how I die clash could happen then! But I had always assumed that most modern circulating coins (which are anything but high relief) don't actually have a side that is concave, which means that they don't have a convex die making them. And I don't know if every ancient coin has a convex die creating an incuse reverse, either. So unfortunately I still remain fairly confused. -- My thanks to all the others who contributed, and I also welcome others who can set me straight. Many thanks to all! -- UPDATE: JeffC, I think I just got it! (Thanks to your diagram.) It's because, I'm guessing, the metal flows from the force of the blow where the two dies meet (as per Gronnh20).
Yeap, the top die now has a new incused area which becomes the die clash when it strikes the planchet. See below. Thanks for sharing the info relating to the Greek coin. Interesting.
Since you insist on discussing modern coins in the ancient section perhaps you fail to realize that ancient dies were not rigidly aligned or made of hard steel as were those for your modern coins. In some cases it seems that reverse dies were made less hard to avoid damaging the more valuable portrait dies. That might explain why some ancient clashes are so much more obvious even to the point that a hunk of the die was broken out. You might be amazed that they continued using such damaged dies but they did in some cases. Of those in my collection, the denarius below is quite severe with a piece missing at upper right. Terms like convex and concave mean less when we have high relief and warped planes.
I can help NB (but not with explanation of die clash)... You (we humans) PREFER visual learning because it's easier. Our brains have capability of 'learning', almost to the point that we draw our last breath. And the 'work' involved in learning the hard way (yes; with visual cue assistance of course), transfers to other parts of cerebral cortex. Pertinence to your post [relative] ? You'll spot coins faster, whenever / if ever you look at change, or do coin roll searches
I'm not quite sure where this is coming from. This is a coin error thread, and I am discussing coin errors. A die clash is a die clash, regardless of whether it occurred a thousand years ago or yesterday. I could have posted this question in the Ancients section, but I wasn't sure if that was the "right" section since it was about an error. This is also the second time you have sort of accused me of something; last time on another thread you seemed to be implying that I was "correcting others for grammar," when I had done no such thing. May I ask: do you have something against me? -- Update: the thought occurs to me that I did bring up modern coins a few times by way of analogy in the ancients section, but the point I was trying to make was still in regards to ancients. If you didn't like the analogies, I'll try to cut them out.
Thank you for this explanation; that's interesting about the ancients continuing to use damaged dies. I also appreciate your note about dies not being aligned as rigidly as modern coins, as well as your final sentence about convex and concave meaning less when we have high relief and warped planes--I hadn't thought of that.
Thank you, nuMRmatist. I actually do not have trouble spotting die clashes; I was trying to visualize how they come to be. I actually have a coin with a die clash; it's a Chinese Sun Yat-Sen "Junk" dollar. I kind of like the die clash on it. It's nothing special, though--just a run of the mill die clash.
Major die clash coins are one of my favorites to collect . There are some awesome 2005 nickel die clash coins out there but they are super scarce. Plus some great die clash coins in about all denominations of our modern coins. I like the counter clashes the best but they are quite elusive.
