Ok so firstly I want to say that this post is about a fictional currency in a fictional world. I am posting it here because this forum is “Coin Chat” which seems like the best fit. I think it’s interesting and I’m hoping others will jump in and share their thoughts. Yes I know GRRM isn’t an economist so it might not make sense but again it’s interesting to think about. Now having said that here is what I want to discuss. In Game of Thrones the continent of Westeros uses copper, silver and gold coinage. The conversion table is listed at the bottom of this post. Here is what confuses me though: In the books Ser Duncan the Tall says that “a man can live well on 3 gold dragons a year.” Yet when King Robert Baratheon holds the “Tourney of the Hand” to honor Eddard Stark’s appointment as Hand of The King he awards the following prizes: - 40,000 Gold Dragons to the winner of the joust. - 20,000 Gold Dragons to the runner up of the joust. - 20,000 Gold Dragons to the winner of the melee. & 10,000 Gold Dragons to the winner of the archery contest. Now assuming, as Ser Duncan said, that a man could live well on 3 gold dragons a year that means the winner of the joust earns enough money from that one tournament alone to live well for 13,333 years?? Here are some prices I remember things being in the books. - Arya asks for a loaf of bread and is told it will cost 3 coppers. - Lord Baelish wagered Renly Baratheon 100 Gold Dragons that Gregor Clegane would win against Loras Tyrell in the joust. He said it would’ve bought either a high end prostitute from the pleasure houses of Lys or a dozen barrels of expensive Dornish wine. - A cheap prostitute cost 5 coppers (per session not to buy the prostitute as in the example above). - Lord Selwyn Tarth offers 300 Gold Dragons for the safe return of his daughter Brienne. Jaime Lannister says that this is a high offer even for a noblewoman. - Tywin Lannister places a bounty of 100 Silver Stags on Sandor Clegane who is one of the most dangerous people in Westeros. Initially Varys recommends a bounty of 10 silver stags before Tywin raises it to 100. - Karl Tanner (leader of the mutiny at Kraster’s Keep) says while working in Flea Bottom as a hitman he was paid 7 Silver Stags per murder. Now I’m wondering if anyone happens to have any guesses on how much a Gold Dragon, Silver Stag, or Copper Penny would be worth in our time? Anyway I just thought it was interesting.
What does “live well” mean anyways? If it wants affording groceries for one for a year than 3 dragons x$1000 would get you fed reasonably well for a year.
Ive always thought “live well” just meant having enough food, clothing and shelter and not going hungry, naked or cold. Keep in mind Ser Duncan also bought a war horse for 2 Gold Dragons. If we assume that it meant average wages then today the average wage is about $40K/year. But if 3 Gold Dragons is worth the equivalent of $40K then that means the winner of the joust who was paid 40,000 Gold Dragons received the equivalent of ~$533,000,000. That doesn’t make sense though either. :/
posted the first part elsewhere Here is something for a estimate a suit of armor was around 5 pounds at minimum or 15 gold nobles. In the Hedge Knight Ser Duncan the Tall pays just about 4 Dragons for a good but plain suit of Armor. If that was to hold each Gold Dragon would be worth a value close to 4 gold nobles and the weight would be 28 grams. One Gold Dragon would there be worth 1 pound and 6 shilling and 8 pence using the year of the armors value as a base. We plug that number into measuring worth and find that one dragon as the modern value of between 1,069 and 805,400 pounds in 2019. Beyond the real price at 1,069 all the other numbers x 3 would be an amount that would reasonable for a vagabond hedge knight like Ser Duncan the tall to live on. There may have also been some inflation in the 50 years of relative peace of the later Targaryen kings. So yes 40,000 dragons is a massive amount but remember Robert basically bankrupted the kingdom (That was super wealthy in cash when he came the throne) plus Westros is more the size of Europe so.. the currency is a lot better then most fantasy the Hand Tournament not withstanding in medieval europe a gold coin was a month's or more wages for an average person https://armstreet.com/news/the-cost-of-plate-armor-in-modern-money https://awoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/Currency https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Noble_(English_coin) https://www.measuringworth.com/calculators/ukcompare/relativevalue.php?use[]=CPI&use[]=WAGE&year_early=1441£71=1&shilling71=4&pence71=&amount=1.2&year_source=1441&year_result=2020
I get where you’re coming from and appreciate the info! But if a Gold Dragon is £1 6s then that means the 4 winners of the Tourney alone made more money than the crown would make over 3 years. According to this Medieval price list the average income of the King/Queen of England during peacetime was about £30,000. Which would be less than 30,000 Gold Dragons if a Gold Dragon is worth more than a medieval pound sterling. Yet the winner of the joust alone won 40,000 Gold Dragons.
Given the title I assuming those are English numbers? Westros is a far bigger country and was until the War of The Five Kings very unified (by medieval Europe standards its to the Holy Roman Empire or France ) so it would be hard to project Crown revenue
Yeah they are English numbers. Doesn’t it seem to you that 40,000 Gold Dragons is an insanely high reward for winning a jousting tournament? I mean most of the inhabitants of Westeros don’t even have a single Gold Dragon and do most of their trade in silver & copper. For example when Arya & The Hound are taken in by the farmer & his daughter. The Farmer says The Hound looks strong and asks him to work for him. The Hound asks “How much do you pay?” & The Farmer replied: “We haven’t got much but I’ve got a bit of silver hidden away”. To me that indicates that most of the small folk only have a bit of silver & copper saved up (if anything). I’ve always considered a Gold Dragon to be a gold coin approximately equal to a $10 Gold Eagle. Or even a $5 Half Eagle. But even if it’s a $5 Half Eagle 40,000 still seems ridiculously high. I think 40,000 Silver Stags would’ve made a lot more sense. 40,000 silver stags would be approximately 2000 Gold Dragons for the winner which seems more realistic although still high. But that could be explained by Robert Baratheon extravagant spending.
