Counterfeits and the law

Just so everyone is clear, I'm not asking for legal advice -- this is all hypothetical; you may not be a lawyer; and if you are a lawyer, you're probably not my lawyer because I'm pretty sure he doesn't collect coins.

Hypothetically speaking, if I wanted to acquire a counterfeit coin, how could I do so legally? By "counterfeit," I mean a replica that is not marked "COPY. In this hypothetical, I'm not so much interested in altered coins, but they can be included here, too. You can also assume that both I and the seller know the item in question is not a genuine coin.

Suppose I went to a coin dealer that literally has a big bag full of them. Could they give me a fake 1804 dollar? What about a fake 1877 Trade dollar? Could they throw it in for no additional cost if I bought a real coin or some supplies?

What is the legal status of contemporary counterfeits of current and obsolete coinage? Can I legally and knowingly buy a Henning nickel or an Omega gold piece? Contemporary (or modern!) fakes from countries/empires that don't exist anymore?

In short, is there any way I can legally acquire a neat fake while knowing it's a fake? And can someone legally and knowingly sell me a fake if they tell me what it is?

Thanks!

 

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From what I've learned, there is no way.

The coin must be marked "COPY".

"Any person engaged in the manufacturing, or importation into the United States for introduction into or distribution in commerce, or the sale in commerce, of imitation political or imitation numismatic items shall be subject to the requirements of the Act and the regulations promulgated thereunder."
- Subsection B of the Hobby Protection Act as amended by the Collectible Coins Protection Act​

All replica coins must be marked COPY to certain specifications before they are sold. (Sec. 304.6) ​

"It shall be a violation of subsection (a) or (b) for a person to provide substantial assistance or support to any manufacturer, importer, or seller if that person knows or should have known that the manufacturer, importer, or seller is engaged in any act or practice that violates subsection (a) or (b)."
- subsection D​

Here's a neat chart that Steve Caruso sent to me a few days ago:

http://www.theblackcabinet.org/2015/03/01/counterfeit-marking-requirements/

As far as the coin shop owner "giving" you the coin, that's a good question.

And from reading the law, it seems that it is only illegal to sell such coins, not against the law to buy them?

 

It's not a problem to own fake coins. It is a problem to try to sell them as being real.

 

And even if both buyer and seller *know* it is a fake, it still must be marked "COPY" (apparently).

 

I guess you could do what I did when I was 12 years old. I went to a Braves baseball game that was sold out and had to buy from a scalper. He was also selling baseball cards. He told me if I bought the $0.50 baseball card for $20, he would throw in a free ticket.

From what I understand reading the law above, you can't sell one, but it doesn't specify you can't give one away, does it?

 

Isn't that like saying, "Begging is against the law, but donations will be happily accepted."?

Chris

 

@Agilmore01 , I like the way you think. I've considered that route myself, but I'm not sure how it would hold up in a court of law!

 

China gets away with it all the time and this company profits/endorses it...
http://www.alibaba.com/product-detail/-NO-COPY-American-eagle-one_60163013425.html

I for one would like to see this stopped as it just ruins the hobby but littering eBay and LCS with imperfect fakes. Buyer beware and know what you're buying...

Alibaba can trade on the stock exchange but sells counterfeit coins on the open global market...WTH?!?

 

I could be wrong but violating the Hobby Protection Act is not a "criminal offense" as much as it is a "civil offense" where the recipient of a counterfeit coin could be taken to court to recover damages.

As for the OP's question, buying and selling known counterfeit's for collecting purposes is totally legitimate since any legal action will only occur in civil court proceedings where one party sue's the other party for selling them a coin not properly marked.

If both parties agree that they knowingly participated in such a transaction then there doesn't seem to be any legal recourse.

Lot's of folks collect counterfeit coins which were produced as counterfeits and used in daily commercial transaction. The Henning Nickels come to mind yet there is not a collector out there that would deface a Henning Nickel with the requisite Hobby Protection Act markings.

The real crime occurs when someone knowingly sells a counterfeit coin to an unsuspecting buyer who thinks its the real deal.

 

I agree with all everyone has posted...especially selling a 'replica' only with a 'copy' imprint...but many 'replicas' are sold as collectibles in and of themselves and apparently only need to be listed as such...I.E a British Museum 'replica' I recently purchased of a coin usually retailing for thousands of dollars...obviously, this 'copy' was valued about or less than $100.00---a hole filler for a coin I will never afford to own, yet a collectible with more value than just the typical retail value of about $10-$20 that most 'copies' sell for...

 

There are a number of (Revolutionary War era) contemporary counterfeits that are readily available from reputable early copper dealers. some actually sell for as much as the real coin. I have a 1775 Georgvis III contemporary counterfeit half penny (with no COPY stamped on it). When I acquired it, it was represented as such. I
There is also the "Dr. Edwards" 1796 half cent (made in the 1800's) that will sell for tens of thousands of dollars. I've seen two of them come up for auction and the Secret Service has not intervened. Both of these examples were produced before the Hobby Protection Act was passed.

 

There was also a recent thread here (or maybe at the NGC boards) about ICG now offering to slab known counterfeits as "educational pieces."

 

PCGS even slabs known counterfeits. In PCGSCoinfacts, under Braded Hair Cents,
Ron Guth states:

"Plain and simple, the 1848 Small Date Large Cent is a counterfeit, and probably a contemporary one. However, it has been accepted as a collectible coin by the copper community and brings strong prices whenever it appears at auction. Virtually all of the known examples are on over-sized planchets, often double-struck or overstruck on other coins, and at least two show one or more planchet clips. Breen knew of seven in 1988; today the population is 10-12 examples. The Dan Holmes collection (sold in 2011) contained three examples."

1848 1C Sm Dt Breen-1901 Fantasy, BN (Regular Strike)

Strict enforcement of the Hobby Protection Act would require that each of these coins be marked with the appropriate "COPY" text but you know as well as I that this just isn't going to happen.

Then of course, there's this one: 1804 1C Private Restrike, RB (Regular Strike)

http://www.pcgscoinfacts.com/Coin/Detail/36425

Again, "Strict" enforcement of the HPA requires that these coins be marked "COPY" to be in compliance with the act.

 

Excellent thread. I know its going to sound like I am promoting my book but Gurney, Nichols & myself address this IN DETAIL in our new book on Counterfeit 8 Reales. The first 250 pages of this book is written for everybody and covers this inquiry - whereas the remainder of the book is for the collector of Eight Reales counterfeits in this 600 page book.
See Amazon Books - Gurney - Eight Reales - See the Look Inside Link tab.
More advertsing - if you READ this book it will make you a STRONGER collector particularly if you like contemporary circulating counterfeits both U.S. & Foreign as myself which I have specialized in for the last 30 years. My next book due out in 2017 will expand into different subjects and alot of Material Analysis (XRF) data just FYI. The Look Inside link at Amazon Books should display some pages to answer you questions. THe COPY stamp is only a SMALL part of this explanation in terms of their legaility of ownership or if any laws are being broken in the BUY/SELL situation of counterfeits.
If anyone has read this book please state here if I have overspoken this announcement or whatever you want to call it. I LOVE collecting counterfeits ... there should be no fear and I HATE this Chinese situations as you say its POLLUTING the contemporary counterfeit market with these modern fakes! HORRIBLE!

Good thread ...

John Lorenzo
Numismatist
United States

 

If the fake coin in question was manufactured before 1973, then one doesn't need to mark it "COPY" even if they are to sell it, so nearly all "classic" contemporary counterfeits are exempt.

Coins made 1973 and after (pretty much every Chinese fake on the market now) must be marked prior to sale.

 

Steve, did you ever get a definitive legal opinion on this? My understanding was that the new addition to the HPA applied to contemporary bogos as well.

 

Section 8 is where the exemption is, and Section 8 was untouched by the update. It's easy to overlook.

 

As long as you aren't trying to scam anyone (which I'm sure you aren't) then I wouldn't worry about it.