I just got a few bottles of Coin Care in the mail today. Chomping at the bit to get started conserving!!! But I just heard a little voice in my head tell me it might be wise to pause and seek out the advice of the Coin Talk crew before I start destroying my collection... I've found that dip leaves some dirt (this small word encompasses a wide variety of unwanted substances) behind. You would think it would just nuke anything on the surface of the coin. So...I'm looking to remove this dirt before/and or after dip. I've pre-soaked in DW, Acetone and tried a number of household things to handle this dirt. Have some coins soaking in xylene as we speak--maybe that will work. Fingers crossed. So i don't know enough about Coin Care to feel comfortable squirting it around just yet. I've Googled and gathered some info but I come to you and your collective experience hoping to better understand the do's and don'ts, the pros and cons of this product. My last (and first) post here was really discussed wonderfully and I am truly grateful to those of you who chimed in. A fine gentleman also PMed me and helped me immeasurably with in the art and science of dipping...he saved me what i can only imagine would have been a vast amount of time. Thank you, you know who you are. (Don't want to embarrass him ) What a patient guy...guided me way deep into the minutia of it even. Anyway...I'm spoiled now and hoping to learn what you are willing to share on Coin Care. Do you love it? Hate it? Can't live without it? Wish it didn't exist? Im interested to know technique...roll a q-tip? soak it? etc? Is it true it leaves a sniffable, protective coating? One that can be easily eradicated with acetone, I hope? Hopefully its ok to talk about this--not sure if this is a no-no--discussing a specific product. If so, my apologies. Just yank it or let me know and I'll get rid of this. Thanks to all in advance.
The really hard part is being able to spot a coin that can be helped. You working on silver or copper?
Dang I replied via my phone and then realized I wasn't logged in so I believe I lost the reply...hopefully I am not double posting the same sentiment twice Well I just read the bottle and I think I had this confused with something else...maybe it was Blue Ribbon? This says it removes tarnish. Hmmm. Just wanted a cleaner. Oh well I'm sure I'll find a use. Still interested in any thoughts on this product--since I have a bunch And if you know something that removes dirt and that sort of thing that dip leaves behind that would be appreciated too
A this point I'm not sure what product you have, but short and sweet you DO NOT want to use either one of them ! Here's why. They don't make Blue Ribbon anymore but there are other products similar to it, one of them is called Coin Care, yet another is called Classic Coin Conditioner, but as I said they are all quite similar. They are advertised as coin cleaning products, but they are also advertised as "coin conditioner" products - and that right there, well that should be the giant red flag that's waving in your face ! They call them coin conditioners because they leave an oily film on your coins, ostensibly as a protective coating that is supposed to inhibit corrosion. These products are largely designed and intended to be used on copper because copper is such a reactive metal. But this oily film also has another effect on the coins, it can make a dull, lifeless, chocolate toned copper coin look like a lustrous chocolate toned copper coin that many collectors highly desire. But in reality the coin is not lustrous at all, it merely looks that way because of the oily film. These products are things that coin doctors frequently use in order to take advantage of those who are less knowledgeable. And make no mistake, these products can be quite effective when expertly applied and have even fooled the TPGs from to time. But there is also a downside to these products that nobody tells you about. For one thing the oily film acts almost as an attractant for any dust particles in the air will stick to it, as will tiny skin particles that flake off of you as you handle the coin, and any fine dirt or other particles that can come into contact with the coin by accident. All of these things can and will cause spotting as time passes. The other part of the downside is that with time the oily film decomposes and can turn into a globular mess for lack of a better way to describe it, a mess that will need to be cleaned off the coin - again, and again, and again. The TPGs have gotten a lot better at detecting this stuff than they used to be. And you don't need fancy machines (sniffers) to detect it, you just need to have the experience to know what it looks like when you see it. And if they do detect it, well you can forget your coin being graded and slabbed. Luckily, for anyone who does not know or is not aware of the pitfalls of using these products, and has used them, well there's a fairly simple way of fixing the problem. Xylene will work quite well to remove the oily film from the coins - without harming the coins. Now if you can't remember the names or you don't know exactly which product you have, they look like these. http://www.wizardcoinsupply.com/product/coin-care.html http://www.coinconditioner.com/home.html https://www.picclickimg.com/d/l400/...opened-bottle-of-Blue-Ribbon-Coin-Cleaner.jpg My advice, don't ever use them. If you've already bought them, throw them away.
Thank you for all the great advice/information. The product I purchased is that contained in the first link you posted--regular old Coin Care. I definitely messed up; Had no idea this removed tarnish. Just thought it "cleaned" dirt, etc and that if it left a coating I could easily remove with acetone/xylene. I think I was thinking of Blue Ribbon when I purchased this. I've been dipping and noticing what I believe to be dirt, etc remaining on the coin after the dip--like the coin is not "spotless". Ive pre-soaked with DW and acetone, but the coin still has funk on it after dip. Currently have coins soaking in xylene (they have also been in DW and acetone) and Im hoping maybe this will do the trick. If not, I need to figure out something to remove whatever withstands the dip. I guess this is not a common problem? The coins I'm selecting look really clean beforehand--just tarnished. I'm surprised that the coin doesnt looked totally stripped of all foreign substances after the dip but that is my experience. Identifying the "dirt" probably is most important but I dont know how to do that other than trial and error with various substances, chemicals, etc until its gone. I am also theorizing that this dirt is beneath the tarnish. That may very well be chemically impossible--I would think only metal could tarnish and that if there was dirt on surface that that area would be spared oxidation or whatever. Can dirt be beneath tarnish? Maybe its "tougher" tarnish than what's on the majority of the surface of the coin...Since I am using junk coins I have really left a few in the dip for up to a minute seeing if these "spots" will eventually "dissolve". (Not carbon spotting--I believe I know what that looks like--this looks like dirt). I will see if I can capture with camera. Hope that wasn't too convoluted
It sounds to me like the fundamental mistake being made here is choosing the wrong coins to conserve. If all you're looking at is "tarnish," the result of an original metal oxidation process, and dipping doesn't remove all of it, then it's too thick to dip. Furthermore, if tarnish is all it is, acetone/xylene will have zero effect on it. I sincerely hope these are coins with no numismatic value, because the greater the success you're enjoying with this harsh chemical intervention, the lesser the value of the resulting coin. It's threads like this one which prove to me the fundamental wisdom of having decided to keep most of my conservation methods to myself, rather than publishing them as I originally intended a couple years ago. Anyone can learn and apply a scientific process, but it seems very few can cogently decide when to apply it.
mrjason - None of the products I listed and discussed above will remove tarnish, what we commonly call toning, from coins. That is not what they were designed to do. And as already stated, neither acetone nor xylene will remove tarnish/toning either. There is only one thing that will remove toning - a coin dip. And those products listed and discussed above are NOT coin dips. There are quite a few different kinds of commercial coin dips, this is one of the more common ones - http://www.jpscorner.com/images/website pics/cleaner_e-zest.jpg All of them contain an acid of one type or another and some are much stronger, more harsh, than others. And they do not all work the same, meaning they don't all have the same effectiveness as others. Some need to be diluted, others do not. It all depends on what you are trying to do and or hope to accomplish. But there is one thing that you really need to know - using these products can easily destroy coins, permanently damage them, if they are not used correctly. Using these products properly and correctly requires a good bit of experience, or someone who does sitting next to you, I strongly advise you against using any of them. This is one of the milder ones and its primary use is only for removing the very beginning stages of toning, what is commonly referred to as haze, particularly on Proof coins. It has little effect on regular or more developed toning. http://thecoindigger.com/wp-content...pper-GREAT-FOR-PROOF-COINS-221752599092-2.jpg As I said, there are many different kinds, different brands, so remember that and do not believe the advertising that you will find at places selling these products. They all claim to be safe to use, will not harm coins, etc etc etc - and that is true IF YOU KNOW WHAT YOU ARE DOING ! If you do not, and most do not, you WILL damage your coins. And as Dave said above, knowing which coins to even attempt trying to dip them - well that is truly the hardest part. And it requires a great deal of experience to do so. In any event, dipping a coin with any commercial coin dip, stress any, is a crapshoot. There is no way to ever tell how it will turn out until it is too late to do anything about it !
Wow was that an insult, SuperDave? I'll take it as one since it was directed at me. You are on a crazy ego trip, huh? You have no idea what I'm doing, do you? I think I was pretty clear in stating that dip is leaving behind dirt or something that I believe is NOT tarnish. Very minor traces of something. You should cogently read where I wrote I am working on junk coins. To learn. If you published your masterwork I wouldn't have to experiment but oh well I have no access to it. And yes I have read ten other threads where you've said the same thing...people are stupid and don't know what coin can be helped by a dip. Well I'll tell you there's only one way to find out. Dip junk. I am. I am dipping with ez-est...very slightly tarnished coins that are otherwise AU/Unc. Is that ok with you? After the dip there's still minor traces of something on the coin that I don't think is tarnish because I've left the JUNK coin in the variously diluted bowls of dip for up to a minute and it's still there. It's a stain or some debris that DW and acetone won't touch. I'm trying xylene now and I thought Coin Care was a cleaner that might help but fortunately I read the bottle and asked here to find out it was not. I've also heard that dipping is always a risk. That you can never know what's going to be under that tarnish. That even the best get a surprise now and then and that it's a bit of a crapshoot. Not you though right? 100% success rate. Oh and my bottle of Coin Care says it removes tarnish.
To be honest I didn't realize what you were doing either. If you had mentioned this in your original post - - well that would have helped a lot with readers correctly understanding your comments. Or at least it would have helped me. In your original post you said - Since the only thing you mentioned was Coin Care, when you said "that dip" I thought "that dip" was referring to Coin Care. I thought that you were calling Coin Care a dip in other words. I had absolutely no idea you were referring to two different things. Anyway, now that I actually do know what you are referring to and talking about maybe we can get somewhere. At this point what I'd like you to do is to describe the entire process that you are using, start to finish. Doing that will help me to help you solve the problem you are having. And, it would also be extremely helpful if you would start with posting a picture of a coin that you intend to dip, before you dip of course. Then, proceed with what you have been doing to dip the coin, and then post a picture of what the coin looks like after you dip it. And no, please don't use any other products like Coin Care on the coin before or after you dip it. Just do the same thing you were doing when you made your first post.
Coin Care [Betterbilt Chemicals, Vernon, CA] is very different from the product that EACers extoll. According to the label, Coin Care contains D-limonene, hydrotreated light petroleum distillates (i.e., kerosene, a carcinogen) and hydrotreated light parafinnic distillates (i.e., mineral oil). Limonene is a major component of orange and lemon peels, and, indeed, Coin Care smells like citrus fruit. Limonene and kerosene act as solvents to remove oil and the dirt embedded in it from the surface of the coin. The mineral oil replaces the oils removed from the surface with clean oil. Limonene and kerosene both evaporate very slowly, so they remain on the coin far longer than the solvents in Care and Blue Ribbon. What is sold today as "Blue Ribbon" is different from the old product, because it an Care contained 1,1,1-tricholroethane, which was banned in 1996 as an ozone depleting substance. The new Blue Ribbon replaces it with chlorofluorocarbons of undefined nature. Use of any of these products is perfectly acceptable for Early American Copper collectors. Having tried them all, I would say that you don't want to leave a lot on your coin, but a little does protect it, and if you store the coin properly, you don't need to worry about getting a lot of dust on it. That said, if you aren't interested enough in your coin to look at it and give it a quick brusing once or twice a year, you should probably sell it to someone who is. Back to Coin Care, the limonene and kerosene evaporate very slowly and give the coin a "look" that is somewhere between normally brushed and lacquered. I don't care for that look, but I don't think it's harmful.
There's been a lot discussed in here about dipping. NEVER dip a copper coin. It will never again have a smooth surface. If you absolutely MUST dip a silver coin, do it as quickly and rinse as completely as possible. When you remove toning, you are removing some of the metal, and you can never get it back. At the minimum, you will damage luster. Acid is NOT the friend of any coinage metal.
MS70 was mentioned as a dip. It is NOT an acid dip, it contains posassium hydroxide, a strong alkali often used as drain cleaner. Perhaps surprisingly, it is not harmful to coins as acid dips are.
Gotcha.It was assumed i was using the term "dip" incorrectly. I assumed it would be taken to mean what it means. I see this is a big pet peeve of SuperDave's (and I'm sure of others) and he's big on people using the term incorrectly--lurking and eager to pounce on its misuse. He loves pointing out it has thiourea and that the problem with all the fools is they just don't know when to use it. Its good to have dip police but they musn't be so patronizing. How does not publishing your masterwork on conservation spare the world anything? He could write a Chapter One called "What Coins You Should or Shouldn't Dip". Imagine how helpful that would be. Obviously not trying to be helpful. Imagine the audacity of saying that by you not publishing your work you have somehow helped the world...I really just cant wrap my mind around that. As opposed to you, GDJMSP. I have learned so much from you (and some others) directly and by reviewing your history of posts. Invaluable. Thank you. I owe you a great debt. And to the fellow who PM'ed me and really went into great depth regarding dipping (with a solution consisting of thiourea and an acid) successfully. Is the point of this forum not at least partially to teach? Or is it just to thump one's chest? I mean i said "junk coins", so why would he say "I sincerely hope these are coins with no numismatic value". I said "I've found that dip leaves some dirt", so why would he say "If all you're looking at is "tarnish". And this is worth repeating: "It's threads like this one which prove to me the fundamental wisdom of having decided to keep most of my conservation methods to myself, rather than publishing them as I originally intended a couple years ago. Anyone can learn and apply a scientific process, but it seems very few can cogently decide when to apply it." What the ____? Absurd. I needed to get that off my chest. My (thiourea/acid based) dip procedure was developed over lots of trial and error and then honed with the help of someone here privately and I don't know if its ok to divulge any of the methods he suggested but I assure you its all the standard stuff that is freely and frequently mentioned here: pre-dip prep (DW, Acetone, etc), air dry on edge (where did I get that?), diluted dip no longer than a few seconds, neutralize, rinse. Like I said Ive left JUNK coin in dip for a minute and this mysterious substance that is not tarnish/toning remains. And Coin Care did not remove it. I agree it is not something I want to use much anymore and definitely not as a "cleaner"...
If you could, would, just post a picture - I might, stress might, be able to tell you what and why whatever it is that is not coming off the coin. And before and after would be best.
OK thanks so much, GDJMSP. Have a batch of various JUNK coins I've been putting aside for the past week with different post-mint attributes and that have been exposed to different pre-dip (thiourea) "treatments" that is going into the bowl soon. I'll take pics of all and I will invariably have one or two that will come out with this aforementioned "dirt" on them. I cant believe no one knows what I am talking about. I thought people would be like "oh yeah, thats blah blah and its caused by X and dip wont touch that and theres nothing you can do about it..." or "you need to use VerdiCare"...or something like that lol. I did see one thread Kentucky started where he was dipping rounds and there was something remaining on the coin after the dip...thread was called dippety-do-dah or something I think and I dont think it ended with any resolution...the stuff I'm left with is black and not visible until MINOR toning is removed, hence my deduction it is beneath the toning. Perhaps an erroneous deduction but thats what my senses are telling me...Thanks again for your help. Nice to bounce stuff off of you all and not be left to my own devices (and how bout when that dirt is really stuck in the devices and dip doesnt touch that either? Probably needs to come out pre-dip? This is a similar question and maybe one that I could pose that would be more universally experienced. Anyone?)...
If there is very unattractive dirt or organic material on a coin, I might use a little MS70 on a Q-tip. It seems to remove most dirt pretty well and doesn't affect deep toning but it WILL remove the light, colorful and beautiful toning. Never use it on a colorful coin. Having said that, with decades of experience, I STILL screw up and choose the wrong coin and instead of conserving it, I ruin it.
So if you had an unattractively toned coin with dirt in the devices that DW soak, acetone soak, etc didn't touch, you might go at the dirt with MS-70 and then dip? Or if dirt remained on the coin after the dip that wasn't visible before the dip, you might apply MS-70 to see if it removes?
There's several different things it could be, chief among them is what is commonly referred to dip residue. But dip residue occurs because or when the coin wasn't dipped properly. Which is why I asked you to describe your process in detail - so I could tell what you were doing wrong - if anything. If you'd just follow my requests and directions, well, like I said we might be able to get somewhere. But I can't help provide answers without detailed information. And as I mentioned before, the pics will sure help do that. But I still need your description of exactly what you do and when and how you do it. And for how long. Everything matters. As for MS70, it's a great product if you use for what it was designed to do - and that is primarily to get haze off of modern Proof coins. Beyond that it's not really good for much of anything else. Sure, they claim it'll do this and do that, but in most cases it doesn't. It will remove some stuff that acetone and/or xylene will remove, but the acetone and/or xylene do a better job with none of the downsides that MS70 can have.
