Artificial toning vs. Natural toning: re-visited

Instead of going off track on another post, I decided to start the topic up again on artificial toning. I was reading an article online that I thought was interesting and I was wondering if anyone else has anything to add? Some pics showing some known AT'd coins would be great as well.


"Although the majority of toned silver dollars on the market have acquired their coloration over a long period of time, the beginning collector must beware of artificially toned coins.

The parameters which determine a coin to be artificially toned remain a topic of hot debate, but for the purpose of the present discussion, we shall define artificial toning as any rapid chemical, electrical or otherwise unorthodox process which produces or induces coloration on one or more surface of a coin.


Since storing silver dollars in a Mint bag, an original roll, a paper envelope or an album allows toning to form over a period of many years, such toning must be considered natural. ​

Artificial toning frequently yields intensely fluorescent purple, blue or red toning. Furthermore, coins which have been literally "baked" display brown or deep gold coloration. ​

Other artificially toned dollars show a hazy or smoky patina on the surface. Simply smelling your coin is an excellent way to detect spurious coloration, If your coin smells electrical, burned, or generally "cooked", beware! If you have any questions concerning the veracity of a toned coin, consult your local professional numismatist. ​

Certification of toned silver dollars a third-party grading service remains the best method of weeding out artificially toned coins. Since none of the major grading services will encapsulate specimens with even "questionable" toning, collecting only "slabbed" coins may be your best insurance policy."


​

I also read something about spotting being an indicator. Spotting is a screw up that has to be left or attempted to cover up, typically on higher dollar coins. Naturally toned coins should not exhibit any spotting.

I will continue to add to this thread if I find anything interesting.

 

Log in or Sign up to hide this ad.

This is the problem that I have with toning. What about the napkin toned coins that now reside in NGC and PCGS holders? Are those AT or NT?

 

To be fair, collectors have legitimate cause for being concerned about some toned coins. In his video How to Tell Artificial Toning on Coins, available for loan from the American Numismatic Association, Campbell says the following are AT tip-offs:

• Circular toning spots resulting from the beading of the toning liquid that was used.
• Colors that blend together out of sequence. With naturally toned coins, the progression is yellow then magenta (pinkish red) then cyan (blue-green).
• Toning that appears only on the tops of the lettering and devices and not in the coin's recesses.
• Wild "circus" colors -- on 90 percent silver coins, for instance, army green, bright pumpkin orange, and robin-egg blue.

According to PCGS's book Coin Grading and Counterfeit Detection, the following are other indications of artificial toning:

• The toning floats on the surface of the coin rather than having depth and being bonded to the metal.
• The toning occurs over hairlines or other marks.
• The toning exhibits bright "crayon" colors.
• The toning has a yellow-brown, smoky appearance, indicating it was caused by cigarette or cigar smoke.

 

Here's a PCGS article from 2000. Mainly the middle of the article to the end focuses on AT. They seem to have a good understanding of it but admit that some AT coins do get through.

http://www.pcgs.com/articles/article2316.chtml

[FONT=arial,helvetica][FONT=arial,helvetica][FONT=arial,helvetica]" Chemicals, such as sulfur compounds, often result in "crayon" colors as opposed to more natural-looking greens, blues, reds, and yellows. Also, these "artificial" colors often do not blend as evenly as do original colors. When the colors are splotchy or uneven, there is a good chance Mother Nature did not cause them. Regardless of the process used, when the colors "float," have unusual lines, and are uneven, the coin is probably artificially enhanced."[/FONT][/FONT][/FONT]

 

Tough call. Many gray areas involved with toning. Place a "cleaned" penny on a piece of oak plank on windowsill for a year or so... Is it artificial or just speeding up mother nature? I'm sure many technically AT coins have ended up slabbed.

 

Our friend Mr. Eddie Spin brings this question up in another thread.

It appears that most people consider "time" to be a major criterion.

The word that I think really clouds the issue is "natural".

Most everyone would say a coin with "ringed" toning that has been sitting in an album for 20 years has "natural" toning. What is "natural" about sitting in an album? Is that what this coin was minted for? Is that its "natural" environment?

Same goes for the famous Morgan canvas bags. What was "natural" about that? Was that what the coin was designed for?

When someone dies of "natural" causes, WikiPedia describes it as thus (I have added the boldface):

In medicine, death by natural causes is a loosely-defined term used by coroners describing death when the cause of death was a naturally occurring disease process, or is not apparent given medical history or circumstances. Thus, deaths caused by active human intervention (as opposed to the failure of medical intervention to prevent death) are excluded from this definition, and are described as unnatural deaths.

At first blush, it looks like albums and canvas bags are legit because while it required human intervention to put the coins there, they were left alone.

Well what about putting coins in Kraft envelopes or purposely putting them on the window sill (even if it's for 10 years)? Same deal?

If I put a coin in a cigar box for five years because I know it will tone, how is this really different from heating a coin in a certain way because I know it will tone???????

Once again, we seem to let time be the deciding factor.

 

GD, what do you think about that 1922 Peace Dollar? The spots on the front look suspicious to me. How many have you seen like that? And it's just an odd toning across the back that almost seems to show up in an outline on the front. It doesn't look natural to me.

I don't think you can get away from the gray area but something that toned over decades, unintentionally would define naturally for me while somebody taking a few minutes or a couple days to produce something for profit, would define AT. That's my opinion.

 

Artificial, natural, real, fake

That is, indeed, copyrighted and stolen from Best Coins, www.bestcoins.com. I took a couple of sentences, put them in Google and both took me to the same place and to no other places. We see this in school all the time. I stood in a professor's office when he showed me a senior paper taken verbatim from a UN website. He could have had the student expelled, but simply failed him for the course.

• As for artificial toning, I agree with GDJMSP that it is a matter of judgment, generalities and exceptions.
• The fact is that physically toning is corrosion. It happens. Naturally.
• Is it morally wrong to bake a coin in a buttered beet for 12 days at 135 F? If so, how is that different from dipping it?
• One thing about toning is that it can be used to hide problems, and that is wrong.

 

If you put a coin in a cloth , and take it out , I'd consider that NT , start mixing chemicals to get specific colors is AT and wrong . When people say there is no difference to dipping or toning I have to disagree , in dipping you're trying to get a coin back to its original appearence , no fraud intended , in fact if the coin has any problems you'll make them easier to see . AT is used to make a coin something it isn't , sure you can say it'll look like nature intended , not true , most natural toning is ugly , it's the rare naturally toned coin that is beautiful , that is why some will pay high premiums for them , beautifully NT coins are rare .
rzage

 

I want original coins that are undipped and not AT. Which seems to be getting harder and harder....

 

But Garrett would you wan't an ugly splotchy toned cone or one that was dipped correctly so you couldn't tell .
rzage:thumb:

 

I would prefer the later of the two.

 

I agree completely with this post. Too many collectors learn the indicators of AT coins and pronounce a coin a coin AT when they see one of the indicators. The reason they are called indicators is because they are not definitive. When you see an AT indicator, it should tell you to spend more time analyzing the toning on the coin. In other words, it should raise your suspicions.

There is no substitute for experience in any part of life including numismatics and the AT vs NT debate. I have found the best way to try to determine the originality of toning is by becoming familiar with the toning patterns normally seen for that series. If you see toning on a Peace Dollar that looks like it belongs on a Morgan Dollar, you should be suspicious. I collect both and I have never seen a toned Peace Dollar with colors as vibrant as those posted in my other thread. Attractively toned Peace Dollars are exceptionally rare and those that exist almost never display bright vibrant neon colors the way that Morgan Dollars do.

Having said that, it is not impossible to run across an NT Peace Dollar with neon colors. It is just that they are so rare, each one found should face the highest level of scrutiny. This leads us to Doug's final point. Many, many times, even the foremost experts on toning will not be able to determine the originality of the toning. All they can do is decide whether or not the toning is questionable or market acceptable.

I would like to post two coins that are in E-Bay auctions by the same seller right now. One is definitely AT. The other resides in PCGS holder. I will say that I rarely see a Morgan Dollar with this color scheme or toning pattern.

http://cgi.ebay.com/CRAZY-RAINBOW-TONED-1886-MORGAN-DOLLAR-SLABBED-UNCIRCUL_W0QQitemZ260338348726QQihZ016QQcategoryZ139811QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem



http://cgi.ebay.com/AWESOME-RAINBOW-TONED-1880-S-MORGAN-DOLLAR-PCGS-MS-65_W0QQitemZ260338351996QQihZ016QQcategoryZ39465QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem



Now I am not saying that the second coin is AT, but there are indicators of AT on this coin and the pattern and color scheme are not consistent with those seen from my experience. My guess is that the photos have been altered using photoshop and that the colors do not actually look like the photo.

But know this, just because that coin resides in a PCGS holder does not mean that it is not AT. It simply means that PCGS decided that the toning is market acceptable.

 

AT pics

Here's an example of what I would say is AT and uncalled for. This is not market acceptable. While this may be an obvious example, it's one to look for none-the-less.

These are all offered from the same seller:






Now, some may defend this picture and say, "this could have happened naturally in an album. Then we see this seller is selling another Morgan, with the exact same color and pattern. This being a CC and the current bid being over $100.





Then, some may say these could have been in the same album with the same result. Look further into his coins for sale and you'll find this:




Along with several other halves, commemoratives and quarters all exhibiting the same pattern, on both sides. These, you can safely assume were doctored and I wouldn't purchase them. Although there are people bidding on them.

Now, to use these as an example, should you come across one individually... I am no toning expert. But notice how there's really no transition of colors from orange to magenta to blue. It's mainly just blue. These may be easy examples but I've seen several other individual examples, some at a coin show I recently attended.

One coin I looked at had the outside edge pattern like this, but it was pure blue, like a water color. No other colors. The same on both sides, with what looked like a bubble that had popped in it. And the seller was trying to pass it off as a naturally toned coin.

Others won't be so obvious but maybe they would fall into the "market acceptable" category.

I likely will stay away from these edge toned coins altogether. I like to see the outline of where another coin was laying against the toned coin and protected it in the bag.

 

I agree, a bag toned Morgan is a thing of beauty.

 

I like all the points made and it seems most are agreeing. I like the points Doug made in particular. The only thing I disagree with is this: If you already have a hairlined or damaged coin (whether by your own stupidity or others) what do you do with it? Is is worthless? If toning "hides" the defect and the coin is more attractive, is not the owner and future owners of that coin more satisfied with the toned version of that coin. Case in point for me: I bought a 1914 D VF 35 NGC Lincoln from Heritage last year. Foolishly cracked out because at the time I wanted all my coins in sequencing for viewing in my 2x2 Intercepts, i.e. did not want to collect graded coins. I since changed my mind and am collecting graded coins for protection, value, etc.. Coin had spots I didn't like so sent to NCS with 8 other coins. 6 came back graded and conserved well (removed finger prints, verdigris,etc). This one and my 1869 IHC we're "ruined". No access to my photos now (I will post them this Sat when I am home), but the 1914 D is notedly hairlined, spots not removed and now more obvious due to coin lightening in color. The 1869 went from being a nicely toned coin with a questionable prior cleaning, to an obvious previous chemical cleaning after conservation. I have over a grand in rare coins now devalued. The 1869 probably would not have graded but it is now much less attractive. Should I throw in albumn and wait 10 years all the while disdaining these coins and having to check them all the time so that verdigris doesn't devlop in the albumn or ugly toning? If I can accelerate the toning in a natural way I certainly will. If I choose to sell should I say "oncing harshly cleaned then toned niclely; silly me I sent to NCS, they screwed it up and now for sale to you with these beautiful hairlines". I think it' hypocritical to say "toning to hide damage is wrong.". If there is a single collector out there who has NEVER owned a improperly cleaned or hairlined coin I would like to meet them. And what did you do with your harshly cleaned or hairlined coin? Sell it as is? I'd be willing to bet 99% of the collector would try or hope to improve the look of such coins prior to sale or trade in. Should we leave these coins in these sad states? How many DBH's or seated dollars are toned with hiden hairlines in TPG holders? In fact if anyone has suggestions for how to safely speed up the toning of these two coins I am all ears. Currently, they are in ziplocks in airtites with a bunch of Taco Bell napkins and dessicants. Sorry to rant or be disagreable. I just call it like I see it.

 

Be careful.... Paper envelopes along with albums can (and are) used to artifically tone coins.

While that's true, naturally toned coins can and do exhibit every one of those same colors. The problem is that so do artificially toned coins. (Or at least how I define "naturally" and "artificially" toned.)

Be careful, so do naturally toned coins.

Education is even better than third party grading. However, nothing is perfect including the TPGs who slab "market acceptable" artifical toning every day of the week, so it is probably better for anyone that isn't an expert (including myself) to assume a toned coin is artifically toned and go from there.

I'm not sure what you read, but I would disagree strongly with the above. To the contrary, spotting is often the result of natural toning, and if you see a coin without spots (partuclarly copper), then you should be worried that the coin isn't natural.

Bottom line: Be very careful making sweeping statements with respect to natural and artifical toning.

Respectfully....Mike

 

I agree

I think if the coin looks nt and is graded by one of the companies, it doesn't matter. Tone is tone, that's all there is to it, no matter how it got there, if it looks AT, then it was done wrong, if it looks NT to the point where it's graded, although many will think it's immoral but the bottom line is even if someone knew it was AT, if it was graded and you couldn't tell by looking at it, most would be just as happy. I know I would, it's the beauty you're after, and if someone can perfect it to the point grading companies by pass them. If you toned a coin that looked perfectly like an NT, I'm sure you would hold it more valuable than before it was toned.