Any difference between MS- 69 and MS-70?

How many coins that are graded MS-70 are truly flawless? How many coins that are graded MS-69 could grade MS-70 if you sent them back? In the future will most coins that are now graded MS-70 me bumped down to MS-69 once the grading company's develop better standards?

 

Log in or Sign up to hide this ad.

Good questions. What do you think?

 

1.) Actually, probably none of the coins graded MS-70 are actually flawless. I mean, if you look through a 200x microscope at a First Strike 2010 Silver Eagle graded MS-70 by PCGS, you would definitely find some form of bag mark or spot on the coin's surface.

2.) Depending on if you send it to , say, PCGS the first time,and it grades MS-69 and then you resubmitted it to NGC and it grades MS-70. It all depends on each company's grading standards.

3.) Over the years, yes, coins will be de-graded.

 

I personally think now and have always thought that MS-70 coins don't really exist except in the mind of TPGs and their sycophants. TPGs can grade coins at MS-70 but that does not mean that the TPG thinks that the coin is flawless.

By definition of PCGS an MS-70 coin: has no defects visible under 5x magnification. This doesn't mean no defects, it means none under 5x magnification.

I think that the overwhelming majority of collectors think that an MS-70 coin is perfect mostly because they have been told over and over (mostly by people selling them) that they are indeed perfect. Even PCGS calls MS-70 grade Perfect Uncirculated. Honestly, 5x is not that much and I think that the standard for MS-70 alone should be changed to be under 20x magnification or some much higher threshold.

Just my 2¢

 

Except that they won't since owners of coins they know are overgraded will never resubmit them. Kind of like now, if a dealer sends in a 63 and it comes back 65, there is no way that coin will ever be resubmitted. However, if the dealer thinks it 65 he will continually resubmit until he gets his 65 from a TPGer. This is why pop reports are biased showing more lower grade coins and fewer higher grade ones.

Be a collector, buy coins you like, and if your survivors make a few bucks, good for them.

 

Yes, but wont that cause people to look at old slabs with suspicion and assum they are over graded?

 

20x is a good idea, how about something like 100x or 200x flawless being graded 70. Or how about the idea that TPGers originally promised and not grade them 70 at all? Grading services will have to do something new, they have worked through most gimmicks I can think they could use to increase sales.

 

Yep - who would ever send a 70 in for regrading?

 

Yep, which is what you should do now anyway. So that leads to the argument what is the purpose of the slab grade at all then? What are you paying for, authentication? So all of these people who collect "condition rarity", what happens when the grades on the slabs cannot be relied on? Is your MS 68 mercury dime REALLY worth $1000 when a 67 is only $100? That is why I stay away from "condition rarities".

Kind of screws up the whole TPG slab market, huh?

 

Any difference between MS-69 and MS-70? Yes, hundreds or even thousand of dollars. IMO, there is no such thing as a flawless coin. TC

 

If TPGers truly want to slab modern coins, (and they do, for the cash), then maybe their should be a break, maybe 1964, of grades. Modern coins are on a different MS scale, with MS 65 eye clean, MS 66 5x clean, MS67 10x clean, MS 68 50x clean, MS 69 100x clean, and MS 70 200x clean.

At least the scale would give them more room to differentiate and make a 70 truly scarce, not TV telemarketer "rare".

 

Any difference between MS- 69 and MS-70?


sure:
A ton of stupid money.

 

That scale would not make a 70 scarce, it would eliminate all of them plus all 69's, plus all 68's and most all 67's. Do you realize that the current standard for 70's is what you have for a 66? Here is the PCGA definition;

 

Yes, yes I do.

Older coins used to be scarce in 65, and rare in 66 on up. They were special. What is so wrong with a 63 being an above average coin, and 65 being extremely nice?

The grade could be adjusted, just off the top of my head, but something like that would put modern coin grades in line with older coin grade rarities. How many Barber quarters are 70's? From what I hear 40% of some modern issues are 70's. A modern 67 should be a superlative coin, far above most others. The question is, if one coin is clearly better than another, what do you grade it if the comparison coin is MS70?

 

Older coins were not made to the same specifications as today's coins. What you are suggesting could only be implemented with a sliding scale. There are enough problems with the scale as it is. Adding another variant would be the final straw, IMO.

 

Which is why they shouldn't be judged the same. I think a hard break at a certain date, 1965, 1970, whatever, and everyone knows what is modern and what is "classic". Circulated coins are still graded the same, but MS coins have different standards to reflect different production specs.

Again, once you have a coin that is 70, I guarantee you can find a better one. What does the better one grade? Its too top heavy with modern coin slabbing, they need higher standards to differentiate the top grades.

How about:

65 - eye clean
66 - 5x clean
67 - 8x clean
68 - 15x clean
69 - 30x clean
70 - 100x clean

Maybe there would be 70's, maybe not. But at least you would have a variety of grades that truly denotes one coin better than another.

 

I doubt there would be any 68's. Try reading this thread; http://www.cointalk.com/t126215/. That will give you an idea high power magnification really looks like. At 100X the surfaces look like someone hit them with a shotgun. After that, please explain how this scale is going to slide, better, how you can get other to accept you ideas and then explain them so the collector can understand. Not a prayer.

 

I'd like to think I'm a pretty good grader. However, the ability to distinguish MS/PR 69 from MS/PR 70 is apparently beyond my skill level. Read into that what you choose.

 

I will twist the question a little. Are there any MS70 coins? I do not mean SP70, but regular business MS70's.

Second part of the twist, why would I want to diminish the quantities of SP70/PR70 coins? Doing anything to diminish their populations will do nothing but raise their (or their alternative designation's) price.

 

But when you have 40% of a mintage 70, how is it special anymore?

If there were business strike 70's they should be exceedingly rare. By definition a business strike coin shouldn't be handled well enough to be "perfect".

To your other point, I was just throwing something out to try to widen the band, and not have so many at the very top of the chart. Nowadays modern collectors look at 69 with disgust. I find that a horrendous occurrence.