These are of Guy I, Count of Ponthieu 1053-1100. ....And, like that much of the period, from this corner of Europe (northeastern France, across the Low Countries to NW Germany) they’re the kind of coins that only a mother, or a collector who’s already too far gone, could love. ...If you’re that invested in the historical context, this is kind of what you get. Guy (/Gui/ Gvido/ VVIDO) shows up on the Bayeux Tapestry, where Harold Godwinsson gets shipwrecked on his coast. Guy holds Harold for ransom; it takes Guy’s suzerain, Duke William of Normandy (only ‘The Bastard,’ so far) to bail him out. (...Later, at William’s court, Harold swears on sacred relics to acknowledge William’s succession to the English throne, setting the stage for William’s invasion, after Harold’s ensuing coronation. ...In this medium, the narrative is almost proto-cinematic.) ‘Here Guy (VVIDO) Apprehends Harold.’ (Harold has the moustache.) ‘...Where Harold and Guy Confer [discussing Harold’s ransom].’ Ponthieu was a small county just northeast of the duchy of Normandy, and, as mentioned, under its ducal suzereignty. ...More effectively so than usual for the period, particularly in comparison to contemporaneous Capetian monarchs. The Normans knew how this was done. ...Typically terrible coins ensue. ...Yes, I was getting to that. The legends are mostly retrograde (that is, Backward; we’re not in Julio-Claudian /Flavian Kansas anymore). From that point, you get further, effectively illiterate legend blundering, complemented by (expl.: ) 'how hungover was he?' strikes. Net result being the numismatic equivalent of ‘mission creep.’ ...The gestalt is less about the kind of dialogue you can get from the expansive and, can we just say, competent legends on, for instance, later Hellenistic or Roman coins. It’s along more starkly forensic lines: ‘what’s here?’ and, ‘what did they mean?’ Then you can add the paucity of current, responsible references for coins from this part of France. Now you’re looking at a perfect storm. With the sheer chaos of the (mostly illiterate) variants, published and not, it’s easy to sympathize with Duplessy’s hesitance (in his ongoing series, Monnaies Féodales) to get to the operant volume. Poey d’Avant, as of 1863, effectively acknowledges his own ignorance, in light of the profusion of examples and variants, as they were coming to light in real time (Monnaies Féodales, p. 387, note). Gui, Comte de Ponthieu. Denier of Abbéville. Obv. (from 1 o’clock: ) +VVIDO COMES. (‘Count Guy,’ rendered with the same double ‘V’ that you see on the Bayeux Tapestry.) Rev. A frankly appalling rendering, ostensibly of the legend: +ABBATIS VILLA (Abbéville). With a central design, possibly riffing on the Robertian monogram of Odo (/Eudes), as king of Francia, c. early 10th century. (This corresponds best to Poey 6696. Other variations are listed in Boudeau no. 1925; Caron 632 and pl. XXVI: 3; and Roberts 4381-3. But all Roberts does is parrot Caron and Poey, especially Poey’s no.s 6693-5. ...Nope, sticking with Poey this time.) This one has legends which are frankly retrograde on both sides, but as such, only clearer renditions of Poey’s version in the preceding example. As such, it’s only a less ambiguous match to Poey 6697. ...People here have been making whole threads, just recently, out of variously atrocious coins. Whether for wear, or strike, or crudity of the engraving. You would be cordially welcome to start from there. ...Maybe, or not, with medieval examples. (...If there are ancients as bad as this, um, I’d frankly enjoy the schadenfreude. ...You Were Warned!!!)
Fascinating! It never occurred to me that Guy in the tapestry would have minted his own coins! I can add some Norman Deniers which might have been minted by William the conqueror, but we can’t know for certain. Here is my most recent purchase from Normandy: Feudal France - Normandy William II-William Clito/Henry I, r. 1035-1135 (1075-1130) AR Denier, 17.41 mm x 0.7 grams Obv.: +NORMANA. Cross pattee with pellets in angles Rev.: Degenerate chapel, pellet in pediment, with four columns/comb, S above annulet on either side Ref.: Dumas XX-4, Roberts 4835 Ex. Lilburn Collection, Ex. Baldwins sale 25 (26 Sept. 2006), part of lot 1984 Note: Dumas group C et D according to Moesgaard I have wanted this type for some time, and had only seen one for sale once before this one came available. The first one I saw was nicer, and hopefully a better example will come around to replace it. I am not sure why this one is so appealing to me - the columns of the chapel are just more distinctive than many of the other issues from Normandy, and they look kind of like the comb from Champagne (but I highly doubt there is any connection)
With some medieval coins, you have to look beyond aesthetics to appreciate them. This series of Brandenburg denars, for examples, is almost always sloppily produced but in my eyes, it's one of the most interesting fields of Central European regional coinage: Margraviate of Brandenburg, under House Ascania, denar, ca. 1275–1300, uncertain mint. Obv: margrave standing facing, holding two lances. Rev: cross of four crested helmets, cross in centre. 16mm, 0.77g. Ref: Bahrfeldt 561. Margraviate of Brandenburg, under House Wittelsbach, denar, ca. 1360?, uncertain mint. Obv: margrave seated facing, holding two crosses. Rev: ornamented star with pellets. 15mm, 0.60g. Ref: Bahrfeldt 574; Dannenberg 240. Margraviate of Brandenburg, under House Wittelsbach, Otto V, denar, ca. 1365–1373, uncertain mint. Obv: margrave standing facing, holding two crossbows. Rev: ornamented triangle with trefoils and pellets. 16mm, 0.69g. Ref: Bahrfeldt 692; Dannenberg 252.
Perfect flan, terrible strike... Germany, Saxony. Holy Roman Empire. Otto III, AD 983-1002. AR Pfennig (17mm, 1.20g, 11h). Otto-Adelheid type, Royal mint at Goslar. Obv: [D.IGRA]+R[E.X]; Cross potent with O-D-D-O in angles. Rev: [+ATEAHLHT]; Church tower; omega to left, alpha to right. Ref: Dannenburg 1167 type.
It looks like the lip on the edge of the flan is intact despite it clear.y being an off-center strike. I wonder what this indicates for how a planchet was produced? And am I seeing that right, or is this a product of the photo?
What you see is a result of the edges of the coin having been hammered up after striking, likely to give proof of silver purity. A debased alloy would have been too brittle for this type of treatment. This type of hammered-up edge is a regular feature of some 10th and 11th century eastern German coins. It might even have been done at the mints, though this is controversially debated. Here is one of my examples with an additional picture of the edge: "Saxon penny", anonymous regional issue, under the early Salian emperors (Conrad II – Henry IV), ca. 1025–1060 AD, struck in the Saale region close to Naumburg. Obv: legend of wedges and retrograde [R?]- X-I-V (CRVX–type), cross with pellets and ringlets in quadrants. Rev: legend of wedges and C-V-X-[R?] (CRVX–type), cross of wedges. 16mm, 1.17g. Ref: Type Sal D 2:1; Dannenberg 1337.
Valence is a town in south-east France. The bishops of Valence had heard about the First Crusade (AD 1096-1099) and that the Crusaders would be crossing their territory. They minted large quantities of deniers for the Crusaders to use further east. Large quantities of them have been found in the Crusader territories of Syria and Palestine Crusaders Bishops of Valence Denier Billon Silver, 17 mm, 1.19 gm Struck at Valence approximately AD 1096 to 1099 Obverse: Angel (The design appears to be a skull and crossbones) VRBS VALENTIAI (City of Valence) Reverse: Cross with circle at lower right S APOLLINARS (Saint Apollinaire of Valence, AD 453-520)
@FitzNigel, just, Yes! Yes! Yes! I have more of these (Norman deniers) than anyone needs, and between designs, strikes, and clipping (...people kind of knew what they were looking at; No Respect), they Have to be the Absolute Nadir of te Entire feudal series. ...Gotta love 'em, though.
..kool coins & thread VGO....these coins & histories are of interest to me(and many others here) also.....(also kool coin @Edessa! )
@Orielensis, please allow me to second @FitzNigel; Never knew about this practice, conspicuously after striking. Wow. Almost like what people here have been saying, relative to Roman coins, about 'retooling,' but effectively in real time. Regarding what this does to my attitude toward alteration of coins generally, it's like, Watch This Space. Not done even processing it. Serious thanks for your valued input.
@willieboyd2, your example makes mine effectively redundant. (Saving me from trying to find the .jps for it; Thank you!) Except that, demonstrating your point, that one was from somewhere on European ebay; the dealer, from Greece, was willing to say that it was found somewhere in Greece. @seth77 has done a Whole lot more with this context, both historically and numismatically, than I'm ever going to. His threads are eminently worth looking for, and finding.
...but really, doesn't that include all of us here, regardless of the current state of our collections??? Nice thread, btw!...thought provoking & excellent responses!
