1921 Morgan - Fake?

Hi

I have been recommened to join up and show you all the following.

I picked this up and have been looking on the following sites -

http://coinauctionshelp.com/Counterfeit_Silver_Dollars_Fake_Trade_Dollars_Fake_Morgan_Dollar.html

and also -

http://www.silver-coins.org/1894_morgan_o_dollar.html

What do you think - FAKE?





Note the edge, it looks like it has been clad.

The spacing between letters looks closer like on the above sites.

Comments appreciated, this has put me off old dollars.

Trepca

 

Log in or Sign up to hide this ad.

Some more of the edge -







Comments appreciated.

Trepca

 

I would say that's a fake if you look close to the obverse the eye the lips the mouth seems wrong and there is no depth to the coin a flat strike . The design just doesn't look right to me in general. Here's a real Moprgan dollar

Jazzcoins Joe

 

Just curious, if one were to go thru all the trouble to fake a Morgan, which pick a common date?

 

I don't know, It looks fine to me.

as you know the 1921's look different from the earlier years.

also, what is that junk on the reeding shots?


[mood: grumpy]

 

There's guys in China cranking out high quality, common date Barber dime replicas! Among everything else. Making a 1921 Morgan is no big deal for them. And yes, they are using the proper metal content and doing their best to make them to spec. They advertise as stamping replica on them but when people order them, they leave replica off of them. One guy openly advertises to give him a call if you want them to make rarer examples.

All legal. Ebay allows it. Buy all the fake barber dimes you want for 0.10 a piece. I have to question everything I look at nowadays.

 

As for the Morgan in the OP, I couldn't tell you. The replicas are getting so good now, I can't tell from an internet picture, maybe not even in person.

Just the other day, some guy on here said he bought some fake Morgans from China, brought them into a coin shop and both owners told him they were real. If they're to size, with the exact metal content and weight, with not even a minute detail wrong that stands out, how are you supposed to know?

These replicas will ruin the hobby for sure. I find it to be quite sad.

 

Thanks for the comments so far. I have never had a Morgan before and thought a 21 would be a safe start.

It weighs over 25g (I do not have precise scales to hand).

It is not magnetic, I have tested it with a magnet and no pulling at all.

I have had it under an eye glass and the edge has holes and what looks like a darker metal underneath.

It also looks like the ridges on the metal underneath are aligned differently from the (silver?) metal cap.

Trepca

 

I really don't see anything that would turn on a light in my head to say that it is a fake! It appears to have been dipped too many times in the distant past but it looks genuine. Are you seeing Copper showing from inside of the damaged area on the rim or does it show in the reeding around the whole edge of the coin? I can't really see any Copper look in the pictures! However, no matter as this can be explained and I have included three ways that this can happen! (1.) Many Morgan Silver Dollars and other Silver U.S. coins show some Copper look around the edge due to them coming into contact with coins that are high in Copper content., or (2.) Since the coin was produced from 90% Silver and 10% Copper, an improper mixing of the composition when the planchet stock was produced, can account for Copper showing on the edge., or (3.) Also, if the coin was subjected to heat, the heat will sometimes make the Copper in the planchet rise to the surface of the coin (this is seen very often with coins that have been in a house fire).

To dispell any belief that it is a fake, then have the coin weighed and the diameter measured. The normal weight of a Morgan Silver Dollr is 26.73 grams and the normal diameter should be 38.1 millimeters. If it is fairly close to this weight and measurement, then more than likely it is genuine. However, if it weighs say 0.15 or more of a gram off from this weight and 0.3 of a millimeter or more off from this diameter, then it is highly suspect! With all coins, there is a tolerance allowance which allows for wear, cleaning, damage as well as slightly out of tolerance, planchet stock but I don't have the limits available to note here.


Frank

 

I am 99.99% sure that coin is genuine.

 

I think the coin is real and the silly putty is fake.

 

:thumb::bow: That is a good one!

Yeah, the coin is real but the silly putty was probably made in Shanghai!


Frank

 

Looks legit to me.

 

I'm sorry, but I don't think weighing, measuring or testing with magnets dispels anything anymore. It gives you a better chance, yes. But like I said in my first post, the guys in china are using 90% silver, 10% copper to create their fakes now. And they pride themselves on making them to the proper size and weight.
So yes, doing this stuff will catch some counterfeits but will not catch them all. I don't know what you would have to do to prove this Morgan was 100% genuine.
Lets just say, nothing stands out, but despite that, I for one would not bet my house that this Morgan was 100% real. I doubt anybody else would here either.

There are many factors that contribute to the likelihood of something being genuine but I don't know how you can be 100% anymore. And I expect this will get much worse as time goes on and more coins are shipped here from over-seas.


Also would like to note that the tolerances vary quite a bit on most stuff I've weighed. Simple wear reduces dimes by tenths of a gram. I've also found most coins to be under sized, but only by fractions of a mm.

 

Here's a 90% silver 1903-S replica. Aside from the bad "L" in Pluribus, if this was roughed up a bit and artificially toned with the replica stamp left off as these scum bags do, how many here can honestly say they could spot this?

http://cgi.ebay.com/Replica-1903-S-Morgan-Dollar-Coin-90-SILVER_W0QQitemZ250344711730QQcmdZViewItemQQptZCoins_US_Individual?hash=item250344711730&_trksid=p3286.c0.m14&_trkparms=66%3A2%7C65%3A3%7C39%3A1%7C240%3A1318

There are much better examples on there than this but I'm not going to spend anymore time on it. The two stars on the reverse are also different sizes. But I think the point is clear.

 

From the photos, I suspect it is a cast fake. The 'damage' on the rim appears to show a hole with a blob of metal inside it. If that is correct (under stronger magnification) then it is a fake because no blow could cause that, but I have seen it numerous times on forged trade dollar. The edge reeding looks very uneven to me. In addition, on the oblique views, there appears to be a thin rim of metal around the cap, below "UNUM." This may indicate whizzing to smooth out the rough fields from a casting. Just my opinion.
Using weight and diameter can exclude some of the clumsier forgeries, but many of the ones you see now were devised to fool collectors, and use the correct alloy, and have the correct weight and diameter. Most of the really bad Morgan fakes have disappeared from eBay- remember the ones with the square "toe" on the R of PLURIBUS?

 

Why do you think its genuine ?
rzage

 

Hello Sonlarson,
This photo depicts two fake (common date) 1922 dollars. You can see the same contact marks on each of them. These repeating depressions are due to the contact marks being on the host coin. These two coins came from China.
Very best regards,
collect89

 

I was in China a couple of years ago, and yes, they do fake common date Morgan dollars, including the 1921. Some are ridiculously obvious fakes, but others admittedly are pretty darned good. The crazy thing was I never got a chance to buy any of this stuff there at the source - I could never bargain the price down to what I was willing to pay.

But when I found other stuff like real and better Chinese coins - I could easily bargain down to my price. Go figure.

 

Sparrow,

I have checked this coin at 200X zoom and I am 99.99% certain that it is not a Cast fake! There is no evidence whasoever of any porousity, bumps or imperfections on the surfaces of the fields or details. The lines and edges on Miss Liberty, the Date, the Eagle, the arrows, the Wreath and all of the Lettering have sharp and crisp edges. This would not be true with a Cast fake as the details and lettering would not have sharp and crisp edges and would flow into the fields instead of abruptly terminating in the fields. It is possible that it could be a struck counterfeit and although I could be wrong, I doubt that is the case! As for the rim damage appearing as repairs where the compostion was poured into a mold, then my previous observation dispells that myth and I believe that these damaged areas on the rim are nothing more than damage from being dropped somewhat sideways onto a rough surface such as a brushed concrete slab or a rocked surface.

I have edited and cropped 4 of the pictures and have attached them to this posting. I hope that they better show the surfaces, hairlines and edges on the details, lettering and in the fields.


Frank