1908 $2.50 Indian-- Real or Fake?

I bought this 1908 $2.50 Indian a couple of years ago and there seems to be some question about its authenticity:

 

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The weight is the same as a genuine $2.50

I will supply a link to a slabbed 1908 $2.50 Indian for comparison, if that is allowed

 

Can you explain a bit more regarding the question of authenticity?

 

I've sent it to three major grading services, and they have all labeled it a fake.

 

OK I see. Can I ask where you bought it and how much you paid?

 

I bought it in Japan and I paid the equivalent of $210 for it.

 

Aren't the image and devices supposed to be incused on this coin? When I blow it up it appears that the Indian Chief is raised.

 

The design is incuse insofar as it is recessed below the field, but the devices are raised, they are just under the field.

Does that make sense?

 

Yes that is the way it is described.
I'm not going to disagree with the graders. I suppose you could sell it for the gold content. There are people who collect fakes also. Or you could keep it as an example.

 

So what, exactly, makes it a fake? That is what I would like to know. I saw one in an a slab in an auction that was, as far as I could tell, exactly like mine. I will post a link to the coin at that auction web site, if the forum rules allow me to do it.

 

COLLECTOR1966

One general rule of thumb: If you buy these overseas (from the US) 99.999% of the time they are fakes.

As far as the TPG'ers go, they are very good at plucking out the fakes, as assume that they are correct.

The good news? You still have a nice chunk of gold, and will (or should) at least break even with the price that you paid.

 

It looks to me like the star to the left of the 1908 on the obverse is not positioned correctly. It should be touching the breastline coming down from the chin.

 

Three grading services said it's fake...I would go with that, definitely. No question about that.

How is it fake? I don't even understand the question. It wasn't made by the U.S. government, that's how. It's fake.

How can they tell it's fake? Probably to someone who has experience with gold Indians could point out the 30 some-odd differences that this piece probably has from the real coins. Someone without any experience wouldn't be able to tell the difference, thus shouldn't be buying them from foreign entities uncertified.

 

Chuck nailed it - fake is fake. If this coin was not made by the US Mint it is fake.

I know a lot of people submit a coin multiple times hoping for a bump in grade but I have never heard of anyone submitting a fake coin multiple times hoping to have it authenticated.

There are some REALLY good counterfeit Gold Indians out there. This coin appears to be a fairly good counterfeit. (I say counterfeit because three TPGs have said it is counterfeit.) Your photos are much too small for me to see the details I need to see the small imperfections that prove it to be counterfeit. If you could post LARGE photos of the coin someone here may be able to point out some of those imperfections.

In the meantime you may want to educate yourself on counterfeit detection. PCGS has a pretty good book on grading and counterfeit detection (but the counterfeit detection portion is limited). ANA offers a GREAT 5-day course on counterfeit detection at every Summer Seminar as well as mini-seminars at national coins shows. You can safe the cost of the course on one coin.

 

I refer you, sir, to this article on Coin Talk's home page:

http://www.cointalk.com/articles/37-concerning-the-recent-discussions-about-third-party-graders

Especially this quote:
"I believe it is extremely important for the collector to learn how to grade on their own. And many times, even at PCGS, the graders get it wrong. They may not know the weak strike characteristics of a particular die marriage. They may excuse a cleaning on a key date coin, and still slab the coin."

 

Until this quarter eagle business, every single US gold coin that I have bought in Japan that I have had slabbed in the US (about 40 coins in total) has been genuine.

 

I am looking at the Breen encyclopedia, at a picture of a 1908, and the star in the picture to the left of the 1908 is exactly the same as the star on my coin.

 

$2.5, $5, and $10 Indians are notorious for being heavily counterfeited and the counterfeits are very good. From the pictures provided it is impossible to say what the giveaway is for the coin being counterfeited, if its some recutting in the headdress, or a lump or some weakness somewhere on the coin... will bring back a counterfiet... because it is not a genuine coin. I do see what appears to be a bit of porosity in the obverse field, this very well might be it.

These counterfeits are good, very good. They were made to fool collectors, people who study these things... and they still fool people all the time. The best advice I can give you is to study the coin hard because if it came back from just one major grading service as a counterfiet then it is most definitely a counterfiet.

 

Once again, I refer to the article on grading services on the home page of this web site: Even grading services make mistakes, especially considering that many of them have a high turnover rate (one grading service even fired its complete staff a while ago), and considering the volume that they do and the fact that they can't possibly be experts on every coin. It is like going to a doctor for a check-up, and even though you feel fine, the doctor says you're sick. When asked about the details of the sickness, the doctor just says you're sick. So you go to another doctor, and the doctor takes your money and says the same thing, but gives absolutely no indication as to what kind of sickness you might have. So you go to another doctor, who also says the same thing, but also gives you the runaround. You may very well be sick. But you feel absolutely fine, and there is no concrete evidence to support the doctors' pronouncements.

 

Grades they may occasionally get wrong - but determining whether a coin is a fake is something that any junior grader would get 100% of the time or get fired. These are two completely different things that cannot be confused with one another.

A coin may grade 65 to one person and 66 to the next and neither is really wrong.

A coin is either genuine or fake, and there are no two rights. Grading services cannot afford to get this one wrong.