Let me first preface this post by saying that I know absolutely nothing about grading gold pieces. I have not yet moved on to these as an aspect of my collection. The coin below was a payment for services that I rendered and I got this for less than melt value (about $280). So, to me, that is what it's worth. BUT, I know that I may be able to sell this coin for more than $280, and I would like to do so. As stated, however, I have no way of knowing the numismatic value (if any) of the coin. So, please help me with determining what grade it is, and please tell me an average price for which I can expect to sell it in today's market. In advance, thank you very much. as always, I did my best on the pictures, but if you need more, please let me know. Some things that I noticed about the coin: There is damage to the f in "OF" on the reverse. Also on the reverse, "God" is rubbed away, or maybe a poor strike? Also, the eagle's right wing (our left) is also missing detail due to either rubbing or poor strike. I just don't know anything about evaulating the gold coins, so your help is much appreciated. Thanks! Michael
well since noone has chimed in I will Your coin is very nice and is worth at least the $280 you paid for it! Depending on if it is damage or wear you are talking about can make a significant difference to the price. Hard to say without the coin in hand although your pictures are great. The OF is probably what concerns me the most as that looks like damage. The GOD area looks like it could have been a grease filled die or somthing but it looks like it happened at the mint. Otherwise it appears to have nice luster and I would say it would grade at least AU58-MS60 or higher depending on the outcome of those spots. Looks like the key grade to hit is MS62-MS63 for this coin to have a much higher numismatic value over melt. It is probably worth taking it to a coin shop or showing it to someone with a trained eye and getting their opinion and possibly have it professionally graded depending on what they say. Cool coin though, would be a nice start to a new section of your collection!
Fake Sorry but I'm positive this is a fake. The 'F' in OF appears to have a HUGE point which just didn't happen. It's got some weird damage to it. There shouldn't be missing feathers in the left wing either. The fact that it is a Philly, with no mintmark also greatly increases the chances that it's fake. But I'd say that F is a dead giveaway. That stuff just didn't happen. What does the reeded edge look like? I'm putting the value on this one at $2.00. Sorry man. Here's a real one for you to check out and zoom in on. Notice how the lettering on the reverse is all the same size. On yours it looks like STATE OF and FIVE D. is much larger than the side lettering. http://coins.ha.com/common/view_item.php?Sale_No=1132&Lot_No=8832 Also look how blocky the top of the I and the E are in FIVE. Compare back and forth just looking at the space in the V.
Let's see if there are obvious differences. I don't know coins well enough to tell from pics. here ya' go. :bow:
There is one thing that I'm 100% certain of: it is not fake gold. The coin has been tested via XRF to ensure the gold content. It weighs 8.4 grams. Also, the gouge in OF is most certainly PMD. This was once a part of jewelry, and the damage occurred during coin extraction. The reeded edge is very sharp. I cannot see the change in font size with the coin in hand. Perhaps the pictures are not representing the coin well enough. I did take this to a coin dealer yesterday to have him look at it. But, his trustworthiness to me was severely downgraded yesterday when I had him look at a bunch of other coins of which I know the grade. He must have thought that I was wanting to sell them, as all of his grades were well below every other opinion I have gotten on the coins. I then looked at a bunch of coins that he had in his cases, labeled "BU" and could see how he operates... downtalks a coin when he think he's buying it, and then trumps it up when he goes to sell it. Anyway, he lost a bunch of my future business. And, he also said that the coin is not worth more than melt value. He did not mention that it was fake.
Well glad to hear that your coin is real! I would agree with the coin dealers' view on that particular coin though. I really don't think you will get much more than $20 to $30 over spot. I suggest another way to gauge is to follow ebay sales on those $5 dollar golds and see how they end. It doesn't take too long to get an idea that way. Of course the idea won't be an absolute but it works good enough. hya:
I'm not worried about the damage on the F. I'm more concerned with the extremely large seref at the top right of it. That's not damage. It was made like that. And I've never seen one that looked like that. It is plainly obvious by the pics and I'm very surprised no one else is concerned by it. Also, feathers just missing out of the details in the middle of one wing is extremely suspicious. If you compare the letters very closely to a real one, they do not look right. It wouldn't surprise me if the dealer didn't realize it was counterfeit either. Many dealers have been fooled over the years. If you tested it and it is real gold, congratulations. I'd go back, sell it for melt and feel good that I got that lucky. Just to be honest with you.
This is a fake You're right. The "W" is wrong. So is the T and the R in Trust. Here's a larger image of an 1881-P in a MS-63 PCGS slab. Notice how fat the W is on this one. Notice how the bottom of the T is about in an even line with the base of the R on this one. Notice how the tail of the R on yours goes all the way down to the bottom edge of the ribbon. I'm positive this is a fake. I'm surprised some of our other members wouldn't speak up about one this obvious. What kind of test did you use to test the gold? Did you use an actual stone and chemicals? I wouldn't go back to that dealer again over the simple fact that he couldn't spot this one. There are better fakes out there than this. Bill Fivaz says in his book that 90% of the Liberty head fakes out there will be Philadelphia coins because they have no mint mark making them easier to replicate.
Ok, thanks for all the help and feedback. I'm glad you guys were able to spot it as a fake. The feedback got me thinking about this coin, so I had it tested again via XRF assay. If you're not familiar with what this is, then this link will explain it better than I can: LINK The assay results are 89.9% gold, and the coin weighs 8.4 grams. This meets the specs of the US Mint issued coinage. So, I'm wondering why a fake would be made that is just like the metal specs from the mint? Oh, by the way, the serif on the F looks enlongated because that is damage. It is not struck that way. If you look at the original picture again, you can see the shiney glare from a gouge.
Pretty obvious, a fake can be made with the same metal content, because the counterfeiters can make it off as a real coin, they could go as far as making it an uncirculated key date, and it might only cost them the price of the metals to make it... Numismatic Value beats out Melt Value, and they will make mucho profits. That is why some one would want to do something like that.
1881 isn't a key date, and the coin is either poorly struck or has quite a few issues going on with it. If someone was trying to do as you suggested (going for unc condition), I would have assumed that the coin would go back into the melting pot for recasting and coining. Because, in the condition that it is in, it really is only worth melt value. However, since this did come from a piece of jewelry, then maybe it was sold off to a jeweler at a premium at the time of counterfeiting. This is all just speculation on my part, and I'm just trying to understand the gold coin market a little better. I don't think that I am at all ready to begin to incorporate these into my collection. I'll stick to the silver issues for now. So, this goes back to my original question... I'd like to sell this gold piece. Ethically, how should I list it? I am considering a few things: "Junk gold coin, 8.4 grams, 90% pure" "fake $5 Half Eagle, true Mint specs" "scrap gold, 8.4 grams, 90% pure" Also, should I damage the coin to ensure that future owners will not try to get more than melt value for it, or should I keep it in the condition that it is in right now? How would other people handle this scenario?
I suggest you have the coin authenticated the good old fashioned way, by chemical at a reputable coin shop. Once you know for sure whether it is real of fake then you can find a suitable approach for selling it. Ask the guy at the coin store you took it to if he wants to buy it and I bet you he finds out if it's real or not.
I wasn't implying the coin was a key date, I don't think you understand that people can and will counterfeit coins with the actual metal content, but they will have it in a higher grade... See where I am going with this? It is all about the money... The melt value is less than the numismatic value, so they will counterfeit it, with the actual melt value, and sell it, tricking somebody into thinking it is real, and they will make a nice profit doing so. As for your question on how to list it... I have no clue, but I wish you luck
I appreciate you trying to help. I'll try to take it to another coin dealer to see what their opinion will be. I'll leave it at that and if something interesting happens, I'll be sure to post about it.
Good for you, you can see that this isn't a higher graded coin. I didn't miss out any part of what you said at all, but what you need to understand is not all people will know what you do about the coins grade. There are newbies out there, that will think this coin is real, and a really high uncirculated coin, and will buy it for a lot of money. I assure you, somebody who knows nothing of the series or the grading of the coin, will buy this coin as a high grade BU, and heck if somebody called this a good strike on eBay, the buyer would, believe them. It doesn't have to be a key date to be counterfeited, it doesn't have to be a good strike counterfeit, or even made with the right metal content to make a profit. People can and will counterfeit easy to find coins, as long as they can make it so, it looks like a BU, they will even include the right metal content as well, just like your coin. They will still make a profit, because they aren't planning on selling the coin for melt, they paid for the metals, and made a fake out of it, to get a profit.
So true about counterfeiting coins with the actual metal content value correct. Look up some counterfeit Morgan dollars on the internet. By the pictures, they are hard to tell they aren't genuine. I don't think it matters though, when the melt value is $14 and the numismatic value is $32.
Does anyone else see the die crack on the reverse? running through the VE D (in FIVE D) and the upside down A (in AMERICA)
If it was not counterfeit I would grade it MS-60....however if you are very lucky, the counterfeit may be 90 fine and the proper weight. If that is the case meltdown would be its value. Calculate the specific gravity of the coin to see if its even close to gold. A destructive test would be a Brinell hardness test, but the diamond would leave another mark on the coin. Best advise go to a reputable dealer and have him test it for you. Good luck. Traci
