1864 Two Cent Piece: Grade and Value please!

Howdy fellow coin peeps!

Please give me a grade and value on this one please, thanks

 

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Wish I could tell the difference between small or large mottos and this is where the value lies. I'd like to say MS, but it looks (to me) AU-58ish.

Take Care
Ben

 

It is Large Motto, if it were small I wouldn't know what to do!

 

The way I tell is the angle of the vertical line with the "D" in GOD. The Large Mottos is slanted to the right and the Small Moto is almost vertical and I use the vertical lines in the shield for reference. Also, the "G" in GOD, on the Small Mottos, has a weird look to it.

As to the grade, I'd have to agree with you. It could easily rate MS but may go AU-55/58. Without close-ups, it's too difficult to say but I don't see any rim dings and the "green stuff" that showed up on the seller's pics, were clearly optical/photographic illusions and this is a very nice coin. :thumb:

Ribbit

Ps: I also believe the luster on this coin is original and it hasn't been cleaned. :kewl:

 

I believe the 4 is doubled. Does this increase the value?

 

See if you can manage to get a close-up of the date. Doubling doesn't always make the value skyrocket but it doesn't hurt the value. I personally prefer errors over "perfect" coins.

Ribbit

 

I cannot get that close with the camera, becuase it comes out too blurry. But from looking at it under the sin light, I can see that the 4 is clearly doubled .

 

Nice color.

Weak stikes are common even in the first year of issue. Depends a slabbers mood. Could go AU58 or could go MS62RD.

As for the doubled 4 probably not a big deal. Repunched dates in the series are VERY common. Especially in 1864 and 65.

Note though. Repunches in small mottos are very rare.


clembo

 

Au 63 Rb

 

Well it is a nice coin and I agree with Ben, but my final answer is MS62.

 

It is a very rare thing that I would ever attribute a grade to a photo, but with all of the high-end circ./low-end uncirc. grades commented so far, I need to point a few things out.

I am a very conservation grader, and I attribute grades MUCH lower than the "market graders", which include most/all TPGs. The first thing I do is determine if a piece would technically fit into a specific range of grades, starting with first if the coin is circulated or uncirculated. If there is actual sign of wear evident on either the obverse or reverse side of the coin, it would fall into one of the two sides.

As Clembo said, the two-centers are commonly weakly struck. A weak strike could very possibly be misconstrued as wear. Thus, it is important to have the coin in hand to make an absolute judgement on the issue, in most cases. The relief of the devices is very important to consider when determining if a coin was weakly struck. On a weakly struck coin, certain devices will appear to raise above other portions of the devices on the coin, although they truly do not. This is an illusion of the weak strike.

What happens is the coin does not receive a full strike, thus making the devices less detailed, much like you would get with rub. The portions of the coin that would have evidence of the weak strike will be those portions that are lower, and thus less likely to receive wear. The devices that are higher, and more likely to receive wear, will still retain some details, more so than the lower ("impressed") devices.

If a lower portion of the devices has strong detail, yet the higher devices, lack in detail, this does not necessarily prove wear, but shifts the grade harshly in that direction. There are other possible causes for weak higher devices, including small die fills and worn dies. Thus, it is rather imperative to have the coin in hand to make determinations with coins that are known to have weak strikes.

On the two-center, a weak strike will most likely be evident first by the vertical lines in the shield. If the lines are full and complete, then you can make a fair determination that the coin was fully struck. Thus, in grading by photo, I would determine weak higher devices, including the leaves of the wreaths, to be attributed to wear. The highest device on the two-center will be the "WE" in the ribbon. This will be fully struck regardless of weak strike, for the most part.

As we see, the "WE" is in fact fully struck and there appears to be no apparent rub or wear. However, my concern would be with the coloration on the northwest portion of the "W". Though not always indicative of actual wear, the coin may have been touched there at some point. Remember, fingermarks do not make the coin circulated, actual wear from use does.

So, as far as the pictures are concerned to this point, the piece could actually be uncirculated at MS63 or lower. Yet, seeing the fully struck vertical stripes, we need to determine whether the "weakness" in the high points of the devices are wear.

Any trace of wear will bring this piece from uncirculated to circulated. The points to look for on this piece for the obverse are the "WE", the arrow tips, and the ends of the leaves on the wreaths. I believe there is no wear on the "WE".

Using photos makes it harder to determine slight wear on the high points, but the left arrow near the "I" in the ribbon does seem to have some lighting issues. The arrow does not seem to have its complete strike at the edge with the ribbon, which could be attributed to wear.

Knowing that we do not have a weakly struck coin here, we look at the ends of the leaves. In the third group of leaves from the top on the left side, I do not see the details of the leaf veins. As well, the leaves in that bunch are not fully separated. With this, knowing it's a fully struck coin, I would have to call out wear on the left side of the obverse.

Flipping the coin over, we see what may be some rub near the middle right side of the coin in the wheat leaves. With this, I would determine the coin to be circulated.

The amount of circulation would now need to be determined. First, we need to determine if the coin holds the possibility of holding an AU grade. In order to hold an AU grade, there must not be wear evident on the horizontal lines of the shield. Again, without coin in hand, this is a hard determination, as lighting holds a big factor on how the lines will be seen.

In the second photo, the lines are clear and full. There does not appear to be any wear on the lines. However, when we look at the first darker picture, we see what may be slight rub just to the right of center on the horizontal lines...right wear the discoloration is. This is tricky though. Because this wear would determine whether the coin should technically grade AU or EF. So, let's jump to the reverse.

Remember, it takes two sides to make a grade. Although you may split grade and give the grade as obv/rev or average grades with (obv+rev)/2, the most technical way of grading this coin would be by its worst side.

Now, I determined wear on the reverse on the right side on the leaves of the wheat. In order to technically grade as AU, there should only be wear evident on the ribbon of the wheat. Thus, since the leaves have apparent wear, we should determine that the coin should technically grade EF.

Looking over the rest of the coin, on both sides, there is no apparent reason as to why the coin should technically grade under EF-45. That's just the end of the technical side of grading the coin and should be determined (with coin in hand) within a few seconds (or minutes if new to grading or this is not a series you are familiar with). Next is to determine whether there are further non-technical issues with the coin that should continue to lower its grade, or even the possibility (as much as I hate doing this) of accelerating the grade because of market aspects such as eye appeal.

I would have to say that this coin was a some point cleaned (due to the coloration of the coin, and the sporadic appearance thereof, as well as a few other indications), but this is not the type of cleaning that is affective of the coins marketability or grade. You have to remember that in the past, it was normal practice to clean off coins with a soft cloth, and removal of foreign objects was common practice. The form of cleaning that will be a determinant in whether it will affect a grade is harsh cleaning, whizzing, doctoring/alteration, etc. This is not the case here, so cleaning will not even be mentioned as a factor.

The coin, in and of itself, has some really good eye appeal. In fact, there is no real apparent wear on the highest point of the coin, "WE". This is usually the first point on the coin your eyes would fall, as the device is the highest point and stands out from the rest of the coin.

As the eyes fall down to the shield, it is superb and fully struck. the center of the coin is beautiful. However, I am detracted from the wear to the left, and looking in that area, I do not see as much luster as when I first looked at the top of the coin. The coin seems to be dull in the bottom portion of the obverse, a problem that I do not have when flipping it to the reverse.

The reverse appears to be full of luster, and I would consider placing this coin as an AU-50. It is hard to determine without coin in hand. But, because the obverse seems to be lacking somewhat in luster (and yes, luster CAN bee seen even on browned coins), the coin just simply appears too flat for me to bump it.

Overall, I would give a cautious EF-45 with a possible AU-50.

I am sure there are plenty who would disagree with that grade, as, like with most TPGs, the coin would most likely sell for higher than EF pricing. Yet, it's not a thing of a coin selling for a specific price range that should determine the grade, but rather the fact of the grade and a person's desirability for the coin that should determine the price.

As far as large and small motto goes, Toad gave some good advice in looking at the "D", but there is also an easier way to determine with coin in hand, especially in LOWER grades. In the large motto like we have here, notice the top right leaf. It touches the ribbon. In the small motto dies, the leaf is a bit parted from the ribbon with a small curved stem that extends from the leaf to the ribbon. that's just one extra marker on the die you can look for.

Now, let's have a few rebuttals from the "pure" market graders. Knowledge is a good thing, but wisdom is power, and we all need to be empowered with it when making our purchases. Yet, the most important thing is if you truly like and enjoy the coin.

 

Well that you for the information you have provided for us. I now know how to grade these, but of course, it would be harder to grade from pictures. I use the lighting (second pair of pics) as a guide becuase when you use the flash, it actually shows all the details that are really there. When you do not take it with a flash, it will not show everything that is there. Also, as some of you may have experienced, when you use the flash, you have see more scratches. This is another reason why people should use it, so they can know what is truly there. But there is a down side to when people use the flash, which is it some times hides the dirt. This is why always provide two sets of pictures, one with a flash, and the other not using the flash.

 

well give me a day or two so I can read that

Speedy

 

A truly nice example of a large motto 2 cent piece , AU -55
rzage

 

A scorcher at AU-55 or 58. It is an extremely beautiful example with fabulous color

 

Im thinking AU 58.

 

I bought this for $30 by the way.

 

Now thats a steel , unless you bought it in 1864 , then I'd say you got took .
rzage

 

But what if he bought it in 1863?

Ribbit