1795 Draped Bust Dollar (real or fake)

Hey Fellow Coin Peeps, :hail:

I’ve managed to acquire a 1795 Draped Bust Dollar and am concerned about its authenticity because of all the fakes running around. What has me concerned is the lettered edge, so I’m submitting a picture of the edge lettering for your scrutiny. You’ll see the squished metal on the edge and that’s what I’m not sure about, since I can’t find a single picture online showing the edge lettering and whether or not the metal can be squished on the edge. All they do is describe the lettering and what it says.

Tell me what you think?

Ribbit,
Toad :smile

Ps: It weighs 27.3 grams and is not a “cast” copy (smooth surface not pitted).

 

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Keep in mind that coins were not struck in a collar in 1795 so the coins were not uniform in diameter and some coins were not perfectly round. I think the edge lettering was added after striking so any irregularities in the edges would have been smashed during the edge lettering process.

That is my unqualified take. Hopefully an expert on these coins will chime in.

 

That's what I think also and why I bought the coin but since I cannot find any pictures showing the lettered edge, I did the next best thing - I posted it here!

Ribbit :smile

Ps: My 1808 8 Reales (Mx version) has a fancy edge and it too isn't perfect.

 

Just in case someone wants to see the other two sides of this coin, here are the pics. In the pics, you will see that some idiot cleaned the coin.

Ribbit :smile

 

Who can tell me the variety code of this DBD? I know it's the off-centered variety (obverse), but that variety has varieties and this variety has fewer berries on the vine (reverse) than other varieties, but that's all I know.

Arghhhhhh! :computer:

Ribbit :smile

 

Looks legit but really hard to tell on a coin like that not in hand. The portrait seems ok, the eagle looks right. The weight is pretty close.

This is one that should be headed to ANACS unless you have somebody locally that can validate the coin for you. Nice coin and great question.

The rim on these were in fact added after the coins obv and rev. and there was no collar used so that would explain what your seeing as rolled.

Maybe a pro will step in and give more insite.

 

There are two known varieties, Bolender 14 & 15. I'm a little concerned with the stars, some appear to be roughly recut with unusual spikes on the star points which are not seen on the two examples here:

http://www.coinfacts.com/silver_dol...795_silver_dollars/1795_silver_dollar_b14.htm

http://www.coinfacts.com/silver_dol...795_silver_dollars/1795_silver_dollar_b15.htm

 

Here are the problems I see on the obverse:

- Fourth & fifth stars from the bottom left have die clashes/spurs.
- Stars on the left are more worn/flattened than the stars on the right.
- The "R" in Liberty has a ribbon spur in the center of the loop.


Here are the problems I see on the reverse:

- The mound the eagle is perched on is not as pronounced as I think it should be but that could be an illusion caused from the coin being cleaned (I didn't do it).
- The eagle's claws are too bold taking into consideration the rock it's sitting on is weakly struck.


All of these can be caused by die wear, re-tooling of certain areas of the die, and other minting malformations and can be easily explained away but I would like to see another DBD with the same malformations to know for sure this is authentic.

Ribbit,
Toad :smile

Ps: This is a Bolender 14 variety. Bolender 15 is the variety with the extra berries and the leaves are slightly different.

 

Here are some...
http://images.google.com/images?hl=en&q=1795+"draped+bust+dollar"&um=1&ie=UTF-8&sa=N&tab=wi

http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q=1795+"draped+bust+dollar"&btnG=Google+Search

 

Ok here's what I've found so far:

Referenced coin link:

Code:

[COLOR=black][URL="http://www.collectorscorner.com/Products/Item.aspx?id=686454"][COLOR=#800080][U]http://www.collectorscorner.com/Products/Item.aspx?id=686454[/U][/COLOR][/URL][/COLOR]

It has a few flattened stars on the obverse (opposite side) and the rest are more pronounced and it too has a weak strike on the rock(s) where the eagle is standing and the eagle's claws/legs are fairly well pronounced. As to the other concerns of the obverse, this coin doesn't have those flaws but the reverse is practically a mirror image of my coin except it's in a little better condition (NGC-AU55) which should put my coin's grade somewhere around EF40-50, which I'd be tickled if it's officially graded EF-40.

Referenced coin link:

Code:

[URL="http://www.collectorscorner.com/Products/Item.aspx?id=687145"][U][COLOR=#800080]http://www.collectorscorner.com/Products/Item.aspx?id=687145[/COLOR][/U][/URL]

This coin is a NGC graded EF-35 1795 DBD and has the same characteristics as the first referenced coin, with more flattened stars on the obverse but not an even flattening all around. However, my coin is a much better shape than this one, which makes me wonder if my coin (if it's real) wouldn't get a EF45-EF50 rating from NGC? That would be even better! But this coin doesn't address the flaws on the obverse of my coin.

Referenced coin link:

Code:

http://www.bowersandmerena.com/auctions/lot_detail.aspx?AuctionNo=13040&SessionNo=3&CatNo=50&SearchString=&VideoFlag=&zoom=1&lotno=2109

This one is interesting in that the fifth star (on the left from the bottom) has a spur identical to my spur but the fourth star doesn't have a spur like mine and the stars are flattened almost identical to mine. Overall, except for the missing spur on the fourth star and the ribbon spur on the "R", this coin is practically identical to mine.

Referenced coin link:

Code:

http://cgi.ebay.com/Replica-1795-Draped-Bust-90-Silver-Dollar_W0QQitemZ350039609050QQcmdZViewItemQQssPageNameZRSS:B:SRCH:US:101

This is the most interesting coin of all because it's a Replica and the star spurs on my coin are also on this coin and there are many other interesting similarities. You will notice that not only do they show pictures of the obverse and reverse, but the edge lettering as well (only edge lettering pic I've found so far). You should see many dings/marks on the obverse & reverse that match ones on mine. Yet, overall, they are not absolutely identical. The spurs on the two stars are identical but the "R" ribbon spur on mine, isn’t on this Replica. The edge lettering on the Replica has a boo-boo with the “O” in “OR” and is quite apparent but that could be from a weak original strike and the over-punched “O” wasn’t centered properly but the surface of the edge is much closer to “perfect” than my squished metal edge. Once you’ve found all the similarities then notice what isn’t similar, like the lettering on the obverse & reverse is mostly flat on the Replica and ridged on mine, etc...

What I really find most interesting, is this Replica is supposed to be a copy of a real coin so that means there is a coin out there like mine and it is real!!!! Is it possible my coin was struck around the same time as this Replica’s template coin was struck? If it was, I’d surmise mine was struck after the Replica’s template coin, based on the ribbon spur on the “R”.

Let me know what you think! :hammer:

Ribbit,
Toad :smile

Ps: Note the difference in weight between the Replica and my coin. My coin is almost 1/2 gram(s) heavier.

 

I hope you didn't pay a lot of money for that coin, and wonder why you took the chance in the first place...Mike

 

Answer - MONEY! Certified ones costs MAJOR bucks, mine didn't. If it isn't real, which I still don't know and probably won't till I send it in, I'm not out a fortune but if it is real, then I've got the find of a lifetime.

Ribbit,
Toad :smile

 

think about it its a shot in the dark unfortunately in my book most times the gambles dont come off i hope ia m wrong

 

I am sorry to say that I suspect you will be coming out on the short end of the deal. The coin looks like a counterfeit to me. However, I am anything but an expert and do wish you good fortune. Respectfully...Mike

 

I'm not to familiar with DBD's but I think I see the same star points on this coin. I'm looking at stars 4-5 from the bottom left. John http://www.mkjassociates.com/cgi-bin/ilgvulot.pl?site=1&sale=41&lot=1312

 

Awesome find Dready! Those spurs are exactly like my coin's spurs. However, I'm still concerned because of all the dings on the replica that are also on my coin. If the dings came from minting, then that would explain why my coin has similar marks as the replica but I don't like the odds. Anyway it goes, I have a DBD that is beautiful and since I can't afford the real thing, this will have to do but if it is authentic, my little toadie bladder will probably burst.

Ribbit,
Toad :smile

Ps: I have a fake 1893-S Morgan (EF-45) that fills a hole I can't afford to fill with the real deal. It's a "perfect" copy except for weight and thickness so sitting in a binder next to the other real ones, it looks real and it is nice to have that hole filled.

Pps: Draped Bust Dollars are DBD's and Draped Bust Half Dollars are DBH's.

Ribbit - Ribbit - Ribbit

 

Well good luck! I hope it works out for you.

 

Remember Toad!:goofer:




Look Before You Leap



The coin looks like it has been cleaned in the past IMO

 

I talked about it being cleaned in my original post and in the post that references other coins. I didn't clean it, it came that way.

Ribbit,
Toad :smile

PS: Frogs leap, toads hop. So, in my case . . . Look before you hop!

Ribbit - Ribbit - Ribbit

 

The edge lettering was applied BEFORE striking, not afterward.

The Bowers and Merena coin and the Coinfacts B-14 both show both spikes on stars 4 and 5, they just aren't easy to see. I don't have my copy of Bolander or Reiver on hand but I would bet those spikes are diagnostic for the die and appear on all specimens of that variety.

What condemns it more for me are the identical heavy contact marks on both your coin and the replica piece on eBay. Specifically the two at the junction of the jaw and neck, the one in the center of the neck and the one just about in the center of the right obv field. (centered between the chin and star 11.) and the heavy dent/gash on the neck above and slightly right of the 1. (There are several more as well.) Ether the guy on eBay made his obverse die from your specific coin, or your coin was made from his fake dies.